[WarInEur] RE: strategic bombing rules
Richard Wilson
wlorcb at rogers.com
Thu Feb 4 17:20:39 EST 2010
The rail net in the game is the supply chain for military use and
transportation of units. Apart from foreign resource centres, in BWIE RC
and MC in Germany are always available for use unless they have a bomb
hit on them. The BWIE rules state that a T hit on Ploesti does not
affect the other centres in the hex. One could infer that the T hit
itself just means that the WA have gotten good enough they achieve 2
hits for the price of one: The MC/RC hit which affects production, and
the T hit which affects the supply line/rail transport capability of the
hex. If the MC/RC hit is repaired, the centre now functions again, even
if the separate T hit does not get repaired, as the MC/RC's in Germany
don't use the on map rail net.
On another note, does CWIE2 work with Win7?
Eric Gerber wrote:
> And would disagree with this. (About the T hits that is).
>
> Without the "T" creating a MC or a RC hit, the top end of the chart
> (17,18) is worst for the Allies then the number below it (14-16) for
> sure. Haivng to only repair a "T" means that it is a minor
> inconvient. Haivng to repair both mean you have a chance to actually
> hurt the Germans.
>
> The other key to me in the wording giving the Allied the choice for
> the "T" to function as a destroyed result for either a MC or a RC. If
> all you needed to do was repair the "T" hit, why offer the choice?
> Since as long as the T hit is in effect you can not use either in the hex?
>
> Eric
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
> [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net]*On Behalf Of *Henry Leroy
> *Sent:* February 04, 2010 11:50 AM
> *To:* Wardall Clark
> *Cc:* war in europe forum
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] RE: strategic bombing rules
>
> I think that all hits are discrete and stackable. One does NOT
> affect the other.
> A 'T' hit does not create a MC or RC hit.
> It means that those centers cannot be used until the rail is fixxed
> I realize that my opinion appears to be a minority
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Wardall Clark
> <baseballnut570 at hotmail.com <mailto:baseballnut570 at hotmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> It is dangerous to apply logic to wargames which are
> abstacting a more complicated process. WIE'S strategic cycle
> is one of these.
>
> The written Board game rules always seemed to me to be awkward
> but clear.
>
> #1 the play sequence is
> U-boat war
> allied recieve new SB units and escorts
> Strategic Bombing conducted (some targets may have hit
> counters from the previous cycle)
> Germans re-allocate interceptors Allies re-allocate escorts
> Germans produce new AP, U-boats (and other stuff)
> Germans roll to repair Bombing damage
>
> With this sequence all hits scored effect production but
> only unrepaired T hits will effect the railroads during
> regular turns. Similarly, unrepaired Manufacturing and
> resource center hits will carry over to the next Stategic Cycle.
>
> #2. Any target may be hit by only one strike per cycle. All
> surviving bombers of that strike get to roll separate attacks
> so sometimes the same strike will produce an MC, and RC, and a
> T result. Each must be repaired separately but more than one
> hit means that more than one repair attempt is made. This
> leads to the one 'ambiguity' in the DG rules. my Production
> chart states that rolling 6 on the Bomb Damage Repair
> Table "means that *both* a resource hit and a Transportation
> hit are repaired" Both is in bold print!!!
>
> My understanding of the English language is such that to me
> this clearly means that one
> one die roll removes two result at once. However, this is
> contrary to the spirit of the rules here and makes for the
> anomally described below. The axis player is supposed to
> specify in advance of the roll which type if hit he is trying
> to repair. This is an awkward way to say that each die roll
> is directed at a specific hit. A roll that will repair a
> different type of hit does not work.
>
> I believe that DG's wording is misleading. The RC result
> should be interpreted as follows
> "A resource center hit is repaired, this result is also
> effective if the hit being repaired is a Transportatating
> hit." The reason I believe this what was intended is because
> otherwise the presence of a T hit makes it more likely that a
> RC can be repaired that cycle.
>
> Consider: if there is only a T hit present in the hex the
> chance of repair is 4/6
> If there is only an RC hit present then the
> chance of repair is 1/6
> If both are present then both must be repaired
> to use the hex.
> However, there is a 1/6 chance that the first
> roll will be a 6 so the odds to get both on the first repair
> attempt is 1/6. The fact that a second attempt will be made
> raises the sucess rate to 1-25/36=11/36. HAVING 2 HITS MADE
> IT EASIER TO FULLY REPAIR THE HEX THAN A SINGLE RC HIT.
>
> Let us suppose instead that any one roll can eliminate only
> the designated hit. Now we need a roll of 1,2,3,or 6 to get
> rid of the T hit and another roll of 6 to get rid of the RC hit.
> This way, the chance to repair the resource center itself
> remains the same and the chance to use the center for
> production next cycle has dropped to 4/36. which makes sense.
>
> Which way does computer WIE interpret the RC repair result? I
> never play anything but scenarios so I do not know what
> happens if there are multiple hits in the hex.
>
> #3 A second hit of the same type is always ignored, that is,
> no second hit of the same type is placed on the production
> display.
> This rule is the reason I always figured that targeting the
> other guys rail roads was a waste of Strategic Bombing
> resources. Except at 3 points on the map, only a single T hit
> is placed and that is repaired 67% of the time before supply
> is judged.
> However, if the opponent fails to take the two critical
> precautions by the time that the SB campaign reaches accuracy
> column 5 the results can be devastating, entire sections of
> front without supplies for weeks at a time.
> The two precautions are (1) have at least one Mobile supply
> unit on the rail lines so that it can be rushed to the damage
> point (2) repair as many spur lines as possible so that
> partisan cuts and T hits have only a local effect.
>
> #4 each producton center is a separate target, hence when
> there is more than one in a hex, they may have different types
> of hits on them. The rules state that a T hit on one does
> not negate the others for production purposes. However,
> an unrepaired T hit will stop rail movement through the
> hex and prevent use of that raill hex for supply.
>
> This leads to the following "Problem" Suppose
> the Five Ploesti centers have received
> four hits in all: distributed as follows
> Center 1, T hit
> center 2, RC hit
> Center 3 T hit and RC hit
> Center 4, no hits
> Center 5 no Hits
> Given that an extra T hit has no additional effect on rail
> usage the map would show a single T hit for the hex if any of
> the three survive the repair process.
>
> Question 1, To remove the T hit from the Map how many T hits
> must be repaired?
> Question 2, If any T hits remain, what happens to production
> Next cycle?
>
> I think the straight forward answer to Q1 is ALL OF THEM I
> will explain why below.
>
> The answer to Question 2 is found in the rules: "a T hit on
> one does not effect the other centers for production
> purposes." The center with the unrepaired T hit will not work
> that cycle (and so need not be bombed.) Meanwhile scoring T
> hits on one center in a hex does not knock out the other
> centers in the hex for that cycle, they still contribute so
> long as they meet the other requirements.
>
> The reason that the answers to Q1 and Q2 appear to contradict
> themselves is that all us are trying to put a physical
> interpretation on each type of hit rather than simply viewing
> them as game results:
> MC = manufactoring center not operational for present
> production cycle
> RC = Resource center not operational for present production
> cycle
> T = production center not operational+possible effect on
> railroad usage during game turns
>
> Repairs would work the same way:
> T = effects of transportation hit do not carry over,
> immediately remove marker from target=
> MC =effects of Manfactory hit do not carry over, immediately
> remove marker from target
> RC =Effects of MC or T hit do not carry over, immediately
> premove marker(s) from Target
>
> The strategic cycle procedes ground movement and requires
> assignment of reinforcements to specific fronts or hexes. In
> this sense it is something that is completed prior to the game
> turns of that cycle which gives the impression that the
> Bombing and U-boat activity took place before ground movement.
> THIS IS AN ILLUSION. The game had to have some sequencing in
> order to allow play, The seguence of the game does
> not simulate the sequencing of RW events in this particular
> case.
>
> If you think about it, the U-BOAT WAR will have taken place in
> the previous weeks (since the U-boats on station will have
> been put there immediately after the previous cycles
> production) The strategic bombing campaign, on the other
> hand, is taking place after the completion of the previous
> weeks' U-boat war but simultaneously with the ground campaign
> about to be waged, since the Allies get to use newly arrived
> SB counters and Escorts and the raids being simulated are
> taking place over the course of the simulated 4 weeks,
> But this is impossible,since in the game turns following the
> strategic cycle the Germans could be using AP that just
> performed interception duties for Front Air superiority or
> ground and sea missions. It follows from the Asset Allocation
> rules that the Strategic cycle is taking place after the 4th
> game turn week rather than before the 1st week.
>
> All of which means that cycle sequence is simply a
> convenience. Given that, let us look at how a Transportation
> hit arises. It happens when a specific group of SB's targets
> the strategic assets of a hex. The type of asset doesn't
> matter. And there is the additional effect that RR movement
> and supply tracing through the hex is disrupted if the hit
> carries over into the next cycle.
>
> T hits thus actually fall in to two types.
> repaired T hits whose only effect is loss of production
> during the period of bombing
> Unrepaired T hits which cause a sustained loss of production
> and involve
> transportion difficulties over a several hundred square mile
> area.
>
> Multiple T hits can only occur when (a) more than one Strike
> attacked the hex that cycle or (2) A T hit carried over and a
> new T hit was added or (3) two or more T hits carried over.
> I would argue that a sucessful roll against a
> previous unrepaired T hit would mean that the lingering
> effects of the previous cycles of bombing have been dealt
> with, but new bombing in the next cycle may again disrupt
> production
> Likewise any succesful roll against a new T hit indicatsd
> that compensation has been made for the effects of that
> particular group of bombers but nonetheless production was lost.
>
> If a single carried over T hit stopped all the centers in the
> hex, there would be severe problems with requiring the germans
> to remove each individually. But since the repaired centers
> may carry on regardless of other rolls , the only severe
> effect of multiple T hits in a hex is the higher probability
> that a Transportation hit marker will need to be placed on the
> map board.
> And the rules allow for a single MSU counter to negate the
> effects on supply of multiple hits
>
> TO SUMMARIZE:
> each type of hit is an abstraction, the rules do not need to
> make perfect historical sense.
> Each repair roll removes a single hit marker not from the map
> but from the Production display because the targets are not
> hexes but production centers.
> Each hit generates ITS OWN repair roll which takes place after
> production but prior the cycles game turns.
> Only one hit of each type can be scored on a target
> Every T hit must be removed individually but MC repair results
> do remove T hits
> Any surviving T hit disrupts supply through the hex
> Multiple surviving T hits have no extra effect on supply and
> rail movement.
> T hits on other centers do not stop production from the rest.
>
> All this combines to make Ploesti a very tempting target until
> one remembers that
> lasting T hits are rare, lasting RC hits are even to attain,
> every flak point in the hex gets to fire at all strikes
> against the hex, successful missions do not reduce the flak
> defenses, the hex is typically beyond escort range and
> finally, the center simply shuts down when Rumania surrenders.
>
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