[WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste oftime!

Tue Sep 16 08:07:46 EDT 2008

For some reason this message did not make it to list that I can tell, I sent it yesterday!

Chuck Sutherland
Network Support Technician
Danville-Pittsylvania Community Services
245 Hairston Street
Danville, VA  24540
(434)799-0456 x3113
csutherland at dpcs.org<mailto:csutherland at dpcs.org>
________________________________
From: Chuck Sutherland
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 3:13 PM
To: 'Kent & Sue Haunschild'; sgminfo; Paul S. Person
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: RE: [WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste oftime!

No sir it is I who should apologize, just been a rough day and you took the reaction of that day, nothing to do with you. I am sorry!

Chuck Sutherland

________________________________
From: Kent & Sue Haunschild [mailto:kentsue at cox.net]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:23 PM
To: Chuck Sutherland; sgminfo; Paul S. Person
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste oftime!

Chuck,

First off I apologize if you took my panzer pusher remark personally.  I  did not have you or anyone else in mind when I wrote it.  I thought the thread was speaking in generalities and I was addressing the problem of some players wanting to skew the game to the point that the Germans can actually defeat the Soviets or Allies in the game.  I am often accused of being a panzer pusher because I don't think the early game plays out anywhere close to historically.  When I suggest modifications to the rules to allow the Axis to achieve in the game what the were able to perform in actuality then the panzer pusher accusations start.

The victory conditions for the Germans are to avoid defeat by the end of the game.  No one can know  if the Axis player has won or lost the game unless it is played to the end.  I do not have a problem with a player conceding a game, if he has made a gross error I.E. Lost Saarbruken in 39.  There is a learning curve for the game and beating up on newbies is for sadists.  I want players to enjoy playing and I want more opponents.  So, if I have to play to the bitter end to allow the Allied/Soviet player to feel a sense of accomplishment then I am willing to do that.

Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Sutherland<mailto:csutherland at dpcs.org>
To: Kent & Sue Haunschild<mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ; sgminfo<mailto:sgminfo at aol.com> ; Paul S. Person<mailto:psplists at earthlink.net>
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net<mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: [WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste oftime!

-----Original Message-----
From: Kent & Sue Haunschild [mailto:kentsue at cox.net]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:54 AM
To: Chuck Sutherland; sgminfo; Paul S. Person
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net<mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste oftime!

The difference between chess and WIE is that each chess game is new.  In WiE

we are replaying a "chess" game and trying to see if we can forestall the

checkmate for more turns than the original players.  As such the end is

preordained.  The Germans lose.  So play to the bitter end is necessary to

determine how badly they lose the war.  If you do well maybe you can improve

on history and winn the game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Not according to victory conditions if they are designed to factor that in, but the reasons I give for allowing a player to quit still stand, if they are dead then whats the frigging point? Or would you rather your opponent attack at 1-4 odds to make sure you win quickly so you can stroke that ego?!? It's a waste of time. Personally if a player resigns a game I feel better about it because I have broken their will to continue. Playing quality defense that is aggressive can be as fun or more fun then playing the offense. But once the fun factor is gone and the game is decided what is the point?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Trying to skew the game to the point that the Germans actually have a

reasonble chance of winning the war and not just the game is in the words of

Sergio "panzer pushing."  (Boy do I hate having to write that).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yep I should never have suggested the Russians be brought up to actually production levels that are historically based, but instead we can continue to allow them to be beaten up on using a totally unhistorical method of using minors to bleed them dry! Then we allow the super paras to break open the lines so the 6-5 masses can finish the attrition war, that's historical and while we are at it use Leningrad to supply all Axis forces in Russia, that's historical! If the Russians have to worry about their manpower levels because of a German attrition style attack there is something wrong in Moscow!

Adding mobility to the armor to allow historical pockets to be able to form and balance that with massive troop production abilities does not panzer push the game but it does start to make the armor able to do what it was historically able to do!

If that is something you are not interested in then maybe we can put the WWI module into the game also so you can fully enjoy the attrition style combat, but then again that game is totally broken, unlike WiE that has great potential to be a simple monster!

I've been playing WiE/WITE since it was put out. I played nothing but Russia for 20 years before trying to play both sides, calling me a panzer pusher is like calling Jessie Jackson a clans man and about as offense to me!

Yeah I'm finally pissed!

Chuck Sutherland

----- Original Message -----

From: "Chuck Sutherland" <csutherland at dpcs.org>

To: "sgminfo" <sgminfo at aol.com>; "Paul S. Person" <psplists at earthlink.net>

Cc: <warineur at mailman.halisp.net>

Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 7:35 AM

Subject: RE: [WarInEur] The nature of the game... Bitter End is a waste

oftime!

> Playing a game to the bitter end when it has clearly been decided is

> foolish waste of time! I like playing the Russians but I can play any side

> and frankly if I was moving into summer 1942 as the Germans and the

> Russians were close to death and were going to be put away in 1942 I would

> easly allow the allied players to resign.

>

> We could talk about what went wrong on their side to help them, conversely

> I would resign in the same position as the kill is a moot point.

>

> Wargaming needs to grow up and become more along the lines of chess. In

> chess when an opponent has a lost position he only plays on to tick off

> his opponent. Thus if you play till mate you are considered a poor

> opponent because the death blow has already been delivered. As long as the

> game is in doubt play on, but if it is clearly a lost cause then resign

> and start a new game and swap sides.

>

> Bitter end play, it not play, its only bitter!

>

> Chuck Sutherland

>

> _______________________________________________

> WarInEur mailing list

> WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net

> http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur

>

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.halisp.net/pipermail/warineur/attachments/20080916/4e6acdb4/attachment-0001.html