[WarInEur] Cav Movement

[Chuck Sutherland]

-----Original Message-----
From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Don Lazov
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:53 AM
To: Kent & Sue Haunschild
Cc: Warineur
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Cav Movement

Don said:
>First off in my opinion the cavalry is not adaqutely represented for much >the same reason you wrote about.

Cavalry was also a changing TOE formation; if memory serves it went from horses to a combined horse and tank formation over time.

>If we look at the German 6-5 ID (which is the games based ID) the cav >riding horses to battle having a 3 mp value we can see something is off. I >have some variants for WitE 1 and the Cav they recommended was with values >of 8 (there is even a WW1 variant as well).

If 8 is the movement for the cavalry for initial movement only then I could sign off on it except I believe it should have an exploitation function and thus I would not make it over 5 movement points!

>I am a little bias towards the cav since my first unit I served in was the >3 ACR (once cav always cav, if you aint cav you aint shit) and the cavs >main mission (and unless I am mistaken for WW1 and WW2) has always been to >scout out, screen or delay missions and speed is the key, not really >firepower. So in my WIE world I would like to see things like:

>GE 3-8/1-8
>SU 2-8/1-8 and 1-8
>PO 1-8
>RU 1-8
>HU 1-8
>IT 1-8

>Regarding your point on # of divisions your numbers with WIE do add up, >however the abstract crap values of 1, 4 or 5 compared to Germans 6 is what >I gripe about most (4x 6-5 = 24 a/d) where (4x 1-4 = 4 a/d) so the Germans >are 6 times better then the Soviets? I disagree. Again using Europa as a >base the Germans in 41 are 8 or 7 and the Soviets are 3 and 4, and towards >the end of the war (43) the Germans are 5-7-6 (a-d-m) and the Soviets are >4-6's and 5-6 Guards.

You also have to take into account the focus of the design is to make armor the real attacking formation through the armor effects. The CRT is totally different. The WIE model is an attempt to have the soviets attack only where they can muster artillery or armor and German supply issues. Also a 3-0 and a 5-5 are really defending at 2 strength defense, if you assume the costs for a 4-4 and 5-5 are really artillery additions to the formations then you get a 4x1-4 vs 13 defense or 3 per 1-4 defense. This does reach the Europa defense levels. Also with the antitank effects you have changed 10-8 into 5-8, in the Europa system you are dealing with armor that is 9 to 14 attack factors. They are the real hunters of the Russian infantry as the Russian will hide his armor in that system. So let me state again if the 4-4 = 4x1-4 and the 5-5 = 4x1-4 with additional artillery and other direct support TOE then the defense ratings of the 1-4 is about 3.01 per unit. That's 3 defense vs 6 attack per unit strength. Or 1-2. In Europa 14 attack factors are still 14 attack factors vs 3 defense or 4 defense or 1-almost 5 or vs 4 defense 1-3 and some change. Thus in reality overall vs the armor the WIE system has a better net defense vs the Germans if you include the armor effects! Add to that a less bloody CRT and I think you have a better balance.

>But what I also was refering to was:

>Now if you wanted to argue that the Soviets should be allowed to stack up >to twelve "divisions" or 3 corps per stack.

The 1-4 is there to represent the early defense ability of the Russians, to allow them to stack 12 high removes that design feature, this design feature is in part due to the soviets foolish activities and slow response to threats. Much like France 1940 they had no ability to resist except in small areas, but over all they were in as bad a shape if not worse then the French at the start of their battles. The Soviets had enough men and space to trade to last till winter, the supply situation and time took care of the rest. The Germans crushed the Russians initially in 1941 but the Russians learned and removed bad commanders.

But in 1941 I believe the 1-4 is a good representation of the Russian divisional ability to resist. As for my stacking limits, like I said those will not work if you stick to the normal combat during the combat phase system. The Russians would be a brick wall come 1942 with 3-0, 1x5-5, 1x8-6 and a antitank unit in every front line hex. This would be 22 defense per hex and with river lines you are talking about 1-1 attacks even with 3 hex fronts! Combat during movement allows the defense to be broken up so that they can be hit with 4-1 or better attacks in mech phase, this in turn causes more small EX results and builds the attrition type war that seemed to be the case. The Germans are placed in a position of deciding to save troops or push things. But the stacking point system needs AOM and supply changes to make it work.

Just my 2 cents!