[WarInEur] Pro-German bias

Thu Jan 31 08:49:11 EST 2008

Operational truth is operational truth, and blitzkrieg used combined arms and speed to win battles. This truth has not changed, the balance of power between weapon systems may have altered but the truth is the truth. And it was this truth that the allied took along time to grasp and counter. Had the Germans been able to supply their forces properly in Russia we would all have been speaking German.

They were not lucky, they just did their homework and got it right as far as battle operations go. Fortunately for the world the allies had time and numbers and production on their side and those forces simply ground down the Axis.

Considering the allies knew what the Germans were going to do makes the case for blitzkrieg even stronger. It would be like playing a basketball game and giving the other team your playbook and signals and seeing now long it takes for them to learn how to stop you.

That operational prowess the German military used does not appear in the game system as it stands now because you can mount an effective delaying battle against the Germans.

Early on that should not have been possible at least in the operational area of the Panzer Corps.

Chuck Sutherland
Network Support Technician
Danville-Pittsylvania Community Services
245 Hairston Street
Danville, VA  24540
(434)799-0456 x3079
csutherland at dpcs.org

-----Original Message-----
From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of srm
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:57 AM
To: Carl Rupp; Kent & Sue Haunschild
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Pro-German bias

it's laughable, really, all th s whining about the
poor germans playing offense  for 150+ turns of game
play while the Allies ( i include the Soviets as
Allies, whic they were)get beaten up and usually never
get to use their offensive capability.

the Germans were lucky from 1939-42.  they were lucky
to hold out to 1945 due to ineptitude among the Allied
side, and divisions within the Grand Alliance.

--- Carl Rupp <carlaugustruppsr at aol.com> wrote:

> An interesting discussion to say the least. I'd
> offer a few points on
> the alleged pro-German bias.
>
> 1. As gamers, and most likely military historians, I
> like to suggest we
> may all have a desire to see if we can do better
> than the people who
> commanded the battles in real life. You know, the
> Monday morning
> quarterbackers. Certainly we all glad the Germans
> lost, just as we are
> that the North won the American Civil War. Still,
> trying to see if you
> could have done better than General Lee or Guderian,
> etc. and changed
> the course of history is a fun thing, at least in
> fantasy. But that
> doesn't mean a bias.
>
> 2. Now maybe the history books have changed since I
> was a teenager in
> the 70's reading my life away, but does anyone
> believe that if the
> following mistakes had not been made that the war
> would have gone very
> differently:
> A.The Panzers cleared out Dunkirk rather than the
> Luftwaffe bombing it.
> B. The Luftwaffe was not redirected in the Battle of
> Britain away from
> the British airfields and at the cities in
> retaliation for the night
> bombing of Berlin.
> C. Weeks were not wasted dickering back and forth in
> July/August about
> moving south toward Kiev or on to Moscow.
> D. Army Gruppe Nord was left to finish off Leningrad
> in September when
> they were miles away, rather than diverting
> resources to Moscow.
> E. No final push on Moscow in November/December.
> F. A logical retreat policy in Russia, rather than
> hold at all costs.
> G. Actually preparing the troops for a Russian
> winter.
> H. Not continually reshaping objectives during the
> Drive on Stalingrad.
> I. Diverting resources to take Malta to secure the
> supply lines.
>
> And I am sure any number of other smaller German
> mistakes could be
> cited, such as trying to make the ME262 a fighter
> bomber!!!
>
> Just my thoughts, which I am sure someone will
> pillory with a rapacity
> that makes a Viking envious!
>
> Carl
>
> Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
>
> > I guess I'm confused. There have been a number of
> changes to the game
> > since SPI published it.
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that the Germans
> don't merely have to
> > capture Warsaw but eliminate 80% of the Polish
> army evidence of a
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is a refusal to play with the 1940 historic
> rules evidence of a
> > Pro-Axis bias?
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that Partisans
> actually cut the rail and
> > therefore block supply (not merely rail movement)
> evidence of a
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is parsing the SB rules to allow bombing of
> the rail net, and
> > thereby cutting off supply to entire theaters,
> evidence of a
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is modifying the rules regarding chaining of
> MSU's so that it
> > cannot be done in the Severe Weather area evidence
> of a Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is the introduction of the German Cadre rule
> so that the Germans
> > are limited to a maximum of 252 divisions evidence
> of a Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is does the introduction of the German
> Personnel points option
> > which caps total German production evidence of a
> Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that Allied
> reinforcements can be placed
> > on dot cities when all other countries are
> restricted to a using a
> > supply center as their placement hex evidence of a
> Pro-German bias?
> > (Okay, Italy is an exception and the Soviets have
> TC's but they need
> > to be placed on or adjacent to a Soviet supply
> center so it amounts to
> > the same thing).
> >
> > Need I continue?????
> >
> > The point is that there has been a lot of
> tinkering with the game.
> > Most if not all of the tinkering has been done it
> to weaken the German
> > player.  NOW! LET ME BE REALLY REALLY CLEAR.  I
> play with all the
> > above rules.  In most cases I think they were good
> changes.  The
> > German lose the war that's a given.  Winning the
> game is determined by
> > how badly they lose.  However, the play balance
> has shifted and it is
> > no longer a close run thing to achieve an Allied
> victory in 1945.  In
> > fact the German can easily be beaten in 1944.
> >
> > As many many players have pointed out, the War in
> the East "is" the
> > war. The rest of it ,despite the Allied
> propaganda, was a side show.
> > The balance of forces on the German and Allied
> sides is known with
> > about a 99% confidence level in 1941.  The Soviets
> more on the 80-90%
> > level so some of their strengths are
> extrapolations based on the
> > apparent German successes against them.  I would
> like to play a game
> > that allowed the Germans to go into Russia in 1941
> with approximately
> > the same worldwide correlation of forces and I
> can't.  I'd like a game
> > in which the Germans can actually conduct a Battle
> of the Bulge type
> > offensive in the West and I can't.
> >
> > What is really annoying is that whenever I or
> another points out that
> > the game is not playing out historically and
> suggests a modification
> > of the rules to allow a more historical outcome we
> are labeled as
> > panzer pushers. I will gladly play anyone with the
> "published" SPI
> > rules.  I do resist the idea of incorporating all
> the KC, LA, etal
> > erratum into the core game and forcing me to play
> with it.  I'd like
> > all of the departures from the SPI rules to be
> options and would like
> > some pro-german "options" added for play balance.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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>
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