[WarInEur] Pro-German bias

Thu Jan 31 01:57:16 EST 2008

it's laughable, really, all th s whining about the
poor germans playing offense  for 150+ turns of game
play while the Allies ( i include the Soviets as
Allies, whic they were)get beaten up and usually never
get to use their offensive capability.

the Germans were lucky from 1939-42.  they were lucky
to hold out to 1945 due to ineptitude among the Allied
side, and divisions within the Grand Alliance.

--- Carl Rupp <carlaugustruppsr at aol.com> wrote:

> An interesting discussion to say the least. I'd
> offer a few points on 
> the alleged pro-German bias.
> 
> 1. As gamers, and most likely military historians, I
> like to suggest we 
> may all have a desire to see if we can do better
> than the people who 
> commanded the battles in real life. You know, the
> Monday morning 
> quarterbackers. Certainly we all glad the Germans
> lost, just as we are 
> that the North won the American Civil War. Still,
> trying to see if you 
> could have done better than General Lee or Guderian,
> etc. and changed 
> the course of history is a fun thing, at least in
> fantasy. But that 
> doesn't mean a bias.
> 
> 2. Now maybe the history books have changed since I
> was a teenager in 
> the 70's reading my life away, but does anyone
> believe that if the 
> following mistakes had not been made that the war
> would have gone very 
> differently:
> A.The Panzers cleared out Dunkirk rather than the
> Luftwaffe bombing it.
> B. The Luftwaffe was not redirected in the Battle of
> Britain away from 
> the British airfields and at the cities in
> retaliation for the night 
> bombing of Berlin.
> C. Weeks were not wasted dickering back and forth in
> July/August about 
> moving south toward Kiev or on to Moscow.
> D. Army Gruppe Nord was left to finish off Leningrad
> in September when 
> they were miles away, rather than diverting
> resources to Moscow.
> E. No final push on Moscow in November/December.
> F. A logical retreat policy in Russia, rather than
> hold at all costs.
> G. Actually preparing the troops for a Russian
> winter.
> H. Not continually reshaping objectives during the
> Drive on Stalingrad.
> I. Diverting resources to take Malta to secure the
> supply lines.
> 
> And I am sure any number of other smaller German
> mistakes could be 
> cited, such as trying to make the ME262 a fighter
> bomber!!!
> 
> Just my thoughts, which I am sure someone will
> pillory with a rapacity 
> that makes a Viking envious!
> 
> Carl
> 
> Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> 
> > I guess I'm confused. There have been a number of
> changes to the game 
> > since SPI published it.
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that the Germans
> don't merely have to 
> > capture Warsaw but eliminate 80% of the Polish
> army evidence of a 
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is a refusal to play with the 1940 historic
> rules evidence of a 
> > Pro-Axis bias?
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that Partisans
> actually cut the rail and 
> > therefore block supply (not merely rail movement)
> evidence of a 
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is parsing the SB rules to allow bombing of
> the rail net, and 
> > thereby cutting off supply to entire theaters,
> evidence of a 
> > Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is modifying the rules regarding chaining of
> MSU's so that it 
> > cannot be done in the Severe Weather area evidence
> of a Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is the introduction of the German Cadre rule
> so that the Germans 
> > are limited to a maximum of 252 divisions evidence
> of a Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is does the introduction of the German
> Personnel points option 
> > which caps total German production evidence of a
> Pro-German bias?
> >
> > How is changing the rules so that Allied
> reinforcements can be placed 
> > on dot cities when all other countries are
> restricted to a using a 
> > supply center as their placement hex evidence of a
> Pro-German bias? 
> > (Okay, Italy is an exception and the Soviets have
> TC's but they need 
> > to be placed on or adjacent to a Soviet supply
> center so it amounts to 
> > the same thing).
> >
> > Need I continue?????
> >
> > The point is that there has been a lot of
> tinkering with the game.  
> > Most if not all of the tinkering has been done it
> to weaken the German 
> > player.  NOW! LET ME BE REALLY REALLY CLEAR.  I
> play with all the 
> > above rules.  In most cases I think they were good
> changes.  The 
> > German lose the war that's a given.  Winning the
> game is determined by 
> > how badly they lose.  However, the play balance
> has shifted and it is 
> > no longer a close run thing to achieve an Allied
> victory in 1945.  In 
> > fact the German can easily be beaten in 1944.
> >
> > As many many players have pointed out, the War in
> the East "is" the 
> > war. The rest of it ,despite the Allied
> propaganda, was a side show.  
> > The balance of forces on the German and Allied
> sides is known with 
> > about a 99% confidence level in 1941.  The Soviets
> more on the 80-90% 
> > level so some of their strengths are
> extrapolations based on the 
> > apparent German successes against them.  I would
> like to play a game 
> > that allowed the Germans to go into Russia in 1941
> with approximately 
> > the same worldwide correlation of forces and I
> can't.  I'd like a game 
> > in which the Germans can actually conduct a Battle
> of the Bulge type 
> > offensive in the West and I can't.
> >
> > What is really annoying is that whenever I or
> another points out that 
> > the game is not playing out historically and
> suggests a modification 
> > of the rules to allow a more historical outcome we
> are labeled as 
> > panzer pushers. I will gladly play anyone with the
> "published" SPI 
> > rules.  I do resist the idea of incorporating all
> the KC, LA, etal 
> > erratum into the core game and forcing me to play
> with it.  I'd like 
> > all of the departures from the SPI rules to be
> options and would like 
> > some pro-german "options" added for play balance.
> >
> > Kent
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net
> >
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> 
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