{Spam?} [WarInEur] France 1940 and changing French unit strength - Addendum

[sgminfo]

Hansen wrote:
>
> So when does the German tend to notice the shortage of PP, hitting the 
> counter limit, etc.? It's toward the end game. When I can buy Vichy 
> French units that will disappear when France is re-taken. I really 
> don't see the value.
>
To prallel the idea SS Wiking and other units did not vanish because the 
parent territory was under threat, but seemed to serve until the end of 
the war (because they had little option?)
>
>  
>
>  If I have the full 6-5 on the board, maybe I buy some Vichy 4-5. But 
> if I don't have all the 6-5 on the board why would I want to get a 4-5 
> for twice the production points? Again, it is only when the personnel 
> points are gone and that tends to be towards the end of the game.
>
>  
>
> Let me ask the question a different way.
>
>  
>
> Why should a Ukrainian 4-5 cost 2 production points to build and a 
> Vichy 4-5 cost 4 (or is it 12 to account for the 1-5 KG cadre) 
> production points to build? I agree that they shouldn't be as good as 
> the German infantry division, I'm just not sure why they should be 
> more expensive than the Ukrainian division. Everything you cite for 
> the French would have gone in spades for the Ukrainians.
>

Yes, and no...there is a world of a difference between the French, who 
had charted a much more imaginative independent course before the war, 
and the Ukrainians, who held deep seated resentments against the more 
'colonial' activities of the new owners of the former Russian empire. 
i.E. The ukrainans were far more ready to fight for their 'freedom' and 
even the scores, whilst the French were far more likely ambivalent. So 
French recruitment to 'the cause' would be a much harder prospect, and 
require more 'resources to instill loyalty, such as skilled officers 
welded to the new order ( a scarce resource) and better equipment to 
reinforce their firepower and confidence, plus a stiffening of German 
personnel and equipment.

I would not intend them to be so relatively disproportionate...

At the same time I do not raise great objections to your proposal, 
merely seeing the obverse of the coin, if the units were like the 
Ukrainian, then they would be my prefferred recruitment, which in turn 
would seem to be an illogical turn of events, thus the basis for 
'loading ' costs such that the economic imperatives drove you in a 
different direction at first...
>
>  
>
> Take it one step further. What would you give as the German to get 10 
> UK 8-10 flips in 1940? Would you get up the chance to build 20 
> personnel point free units (which are above the current counter limit) 
> at double the arms cost to get the flips? Would you as the UK player 
> think it is a fair deal to trade the 10 flips to keep the German from 
> getting the 20 extra divisions in the counter mix?
>
*In 1940 I would not so reequip the French units (which would likely 
shadow the historical treatment)

But in 1943, the restriction might be less invidious, and in 1944, such 
french units might be actively sought. Again, this might parallel 
history. the 1940 cost equation makes little sense...but then itrw it 
also makes no real seanse either...*
>
>  
>
> As the UK player what was supposed to be an incentive to get me to 
> commit the BEF to France is a don't care. The 10 flips are going to 
> hurt me as the allies a lot more than the potential for the Germans to 
> build some extra weak but expensive units. So I won't send the BEF, 
> the Germans will likely never build the Vichy units and life continues.
>
>  
>
> As to the Shipping, I don't think the 3 SURF and 3 MS really do it. 
> Partly because it doesn't reflect reality. The 3 SURF and 3 MS would 
> not be useable in the Med (where the French Fleet was when France 
> Surrendered). They would make a sea lion a bit more attractive, but 
> then you have the question of how they got from the Med to the channel 
> to link up with the Germans.
>
*After the fall of France, they would need only to get to the Atlantic 
ports, with the Luftwaffe the possibility of penetrating the channel 
lies open. 3 surfs represents some balance of qualitative force the the 
Germans might get operational that year for action against the RN, 
sufficient to boost the naval forces of Germany, coupled with the German 
plan for an early sealion (option on), then bouncing the channel might 
well be possible, sufficing to bring off ta British collapse in the 
British Isles.*
>
>  
>
> What they would have done is two things. First, Gibraltar would have 
> been in air Range of French North Africa bases. This would have 
> greatly reduced the Germans ability to project sea power into the 
> western Med.
>

*Well, put it this way, Gibraltar is not an effective base for allied 
airpower, and faced with a hostile southern shore (controlled by an 
active Luftwaffe backed by french ground crews and organisation., as 
well as a potentially unfriendly northern, Spanish, shore, precludes the 
RN from operating out of the Rock to support Malta. Gibraltar might be 
maintained (against light opposition), but beyond that Malta could not 
be supported.*
>
> Now if you gave the Italians some SURF and made the Med naval rules 
> like the North Sea rules it might work. Second, they would have 
> provided more ships/escorts to enable more supplies into the middle 
> Med. Of course the reality was that with enigma the UK was reading the 
> Axis mail. They would task a recon plane to fly where a supply ship 
> would be, then follow up with an attack (to hide the fact the location 
> came through enigma). So there is a decent chance that in the real 
> world there might have been a temporary surge of supply (just more 
> ships allows that), but the UK would have just put more effort into 
> sinking them since they already had the key ingredient of knowing 
> where the ships would be.
>
>  
>
> I think the ability to ship with a chance that the UK fleet shows up 
> to finish off the Italian/Vichy fleet works best. You can implement it 
> in the board game with some errata (no new units needed) and a die 
> roll every time you use the shipping capability. The roll table should 
> include if the UK has only minor ports or has major ports in that part 
> of the Med. So if the Germans suppress Gibraltar, then their chances 
> of shipping troops in the western Med should go up. Likewise if they 
> suppress Suez and Alexandria, then they should have a better chance to 
> ship units/supply in the eastern Med.
>

*Which looks in interesting idea...*


-|steve|-
>
>  
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