[WarInEur] Re: Battle of Britain & Sea Lion
Kent & Sue Haunschild
kentsue at cox.net
Sun Jan 13 17:36:40 EST 2008
I agree. Nobody had the ability to sealift 15 divisions of troops at one time (EVER) and certainly not early in the war.
I'd like to see that scaled back and tied to the U-Boat war.
I also don't like the idea of 15 "Permanent" NTP.
What I'd like to see is 1-2 Permanent NTP at the start and 1-2 regular NTP. The Allies receive one NTP reinforcement each when Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, France, and Greece surrender. These represent Neutral shipping not in port and interned/co-opted by the British and are regular NTP if use lose them do to interdiction they are gone. The CW can build 5 more regular NTP and receives one US NTP in 42, 2 in 43, 2 in 44 and 2 in 45. If you add up all the above you get 14-19 NTP but only 1-2 are permanent.
The British must keep one NTP assigned to supply each sea Zone they wish to trace supply through. NTP assigned to supply are subject to interdiction if there is no path free of enemy air cover through the sea Zonea. Four NTP must be assigned to the Horn in order to trace supply to the middle east without passing through the Central Med.
Whenever a D2 or >-40% result is rolled in the U-boat war is rolled the Allies lose a NTP. Whenever, an A2 or +50% is rolled the Allied receive a NTP. These losses or reinforcements represent the diversion of shipping to the importation of basic commodities. The U-boat war did cause rationing throughout the war and in 40 and 41 had Britain within months of starvation rationing. To believe that the Allies could lift 15 divisions in these circumstances is ludicrous. However, of there is no U-boat war then additional shipping would have been available.
Not saying that the above is well thought out, but something like it would give the game some real world choices and better simulate the realities of the times.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeffery K. McGonagill
To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Re: Battle of Britain & Sea Lion
It is still a question of what the British/Germans thought at the time. The players know that historically the Germans had no chance of succeeding, the British didn't. They had serious concerns about it, even in 1941, until the Germans invaded Russia. Even then they didn't send a lot of additional forces to Egypt.
The British also have too large a shipping capacity. Shipping anywhere but France should be limited to 0-2, with 0-1 the most common until at least US Entry.
~Jeffery~
Because building surface fleet takes YEARS.
I suggested years ago using the old Avalon Hill War at Sea as a "Naval Module"; If you want the German Reinforcements, each would require the Purchase (more or less) of a Surface Point. But the building capacity just isn't there, Bismarck and Tirpitz (& Graf Zepplin) were already afloat (Launched) in September 1939 (14.2.39, 1.4.39; Graf Zepplin 8.12.38). The next (plaaned) Battleship, "H" had 1200 tons of Material on the Slipway, "J" "Several Hundred") ((H. T. Lenton, German Warships of the Second World War, New Tork, ARCO, 1976) (Handiest Book with that kind of Data). Look at how slow U-Boat production was to get geared up. Just building a handful of additional Destroyers, well, NO U-Boat war. And even they take years to build, the British had started building the Hunt Class (And Flower class corvettes) after Munich. And like a lot of What Ifs, the Allied response is also "Assumed" in the Game. British planning for the "River" class Frigates started in November 1940, but the first did not enter service until late 1942. Destoyers are a much more complicated proposition.
Amphibious shipping is even worse; The LST was an Accidental invention of the British Purchasing Commision, and was one of the most important constraints on ALlied Amphibious Planning. The Germans did not even have the desing experience of experimental prototypes. There is a fascinating set of pictures of the improvised German amphibious shipping for Sealion in an early issue of Warship, It is not quite as bood as Bismarcks old Joke about what he would do if the British Launched an Amphibious Invasion (1880's?), but even if the Germans could put the combat elements of two or three divisions ashore in the first echelon, They might be ashore, but with what they could carry on their backs, and a lot of the Shipping was planned for a one way trip.
And look at what a cluster F the LANDINGS in Sicily, and Italy (and Anzio) were.
(Been reading Rick Atkinson's New Book).
Or D-Day, and that was with multiple "Lessons Learned".
I doubt the German (Or anyones) ability to improvise the Logistics follow on, think the Fallshrimjager in Amsterdam with NO ground releif. And the British will (would) be throwing everything they have at you.
Karl Gaarsoe
Carl Rupp <carlaugustruppsr at aol.com> wrote:
What if the limit on German surface fleets and amphibious assault units
were lifted? Then they would be able to build a decent force for a
spring 41 invasion, right? What is the historical logic behind the low
limit on there units/counters for the Germans, anyway?
Carl
Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> NONE!
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Rupp"
> To:
> Cc: ;
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Re: Battle of Britain & Sea Lion
>
>
>>>
>> *Another email discussed Sea Lion and the low chances of success. If
>> the Brits don't commit to France, or successfully pull their troops
>> out, what chances do the Germans have with Sea Lion. Even if they
>> have the Sea Lion rules and build tons of AP for Sea Interdiction and
>> Air Superiority, and invest 100+ arms points into building a invasion
>> fleet of surfs and amphibs, can they succeed?
>>
>> Carl
>> *
>>>
>>>
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