{Spam?} [WarInEur] France 1940 and changing French unit strength - Addendum

Sat Jan 12 19:10:32 EST 2008

Maybe I just don't have enough experience in the end game for the Germans to
see the extra (and expensive) units value. I thought that in an earlier post
you had the French going away when Paris was re-taken (like the Ukrainians
go away when certain cities are re-taken).

So what the UK commander is trading is 10 flips in 1940 in return the
Germans can build 20 expensive and combat marginal units in 43 - 44. I would
still refuse that gambit every time as the UK. 10 flips in 1940 can cost me
the war if London falls. The 20 extra units might add two weeks to the war
at most. By the time they become marginally of interest to build, the war is
going so badly for the Germans that it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure I buy your Ukrainian vs Vichy analogy especially with the Vichy
now being bitter ender troops. If I give them better weapons, buy off
Himmler with some additional non-productive toys I get the Vichy units is
what you are saying. I think a more realistic scenario would be that the
units would be easy to form in '40 and '41, hard to form in '42 and almost
impossible to form after that (as an example look at French collaboration vs
the rise of the maquis). I would expect that of the units formed, half would
disappear when the allies got a beach head in France. The other half except
maybe one bitter ender unit would disappear with Paris being re-taken. 

So let me lay out what I am proposing in the Med.

If the UK fails to meet its BEF commitment (however we define that), then
with the fall of France and the formation of Vichy there is a second die
roll. For every division above 5 add one to the roll. For every division
under 5, subtract one from the roll. On a roll of 1-3, the Vichy is an
active allies. On a roll of 4-6, normal Vichy rules apply. 

As an active ally, the Vichy territory, French colonies in Africa and Vichy
units are controlled by the German and can be used anywhere in Vichy,
France, French colonies (maybe want to expand this list to include Libya and
Egypt, etc. but this would be the minimum). The Germans get additional
shipping capability.

Western med. 

Gibraltar unsuppressed

1 supplies and units get through.

2-3 supplies get through, unit flipped.

4-5 supplies blocked and unit flipped

6 supplies blocked, unit being transported eliminated and special Vichy
shipping is lost. 

Gibraltar suppressed

1-3 supplies and units get through

4-5 supplies get through, unit flipped

6 supplies blocked and unit flipped

Eastern Med

Suez or Alexandria unsuppressed

1 supplies and units get through.

2-3 supplies get through, unit flipped.

4-5 supplies blocked and unit flipped

6 supplies blocked, unit being transported eliminated and special Vichy
shipping is lost. 

Suez and Alexandria suppressed

1-3 supplies and units get through

4-5 supplies get through, unit flipped

6 supplies blocked and unit flipped

The role is triggered when the Germans try to ship a unit into the western
or eastern med or supply into either. You can have two roles per turn if you
try for both Eastern and Western med.

Germans can ship RR units to North Africa with Vichy shipping if there is a
major port at both ends of the shipping route.

While you have the Vichy shipping, the number of German/Italian units that
can be in North Africa can be doubled. If Vichy shipping is lost, then no
German or Italian units can be sent to NA and units there can not receive
replacements until the Germans are 10 or less units and the Italians are 20
or less units.

This would require no additional units for the board game (just use the
Vichy units) and the shipping is just a rule change.

  _____  

From: sgminfo [mailto:sgminfo at aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:39 PM
To: Hansen
Subject: Re: {Spam?} [WarInEur] France 1940 and changing French unit
strength - Addendum

Hansen wrote: 

So when does the German tend to notice the shortage of PP, hitting the
counter limit, etc.? It's toward the end game. When I can buy Vichy French
units that will disappear when France is re-taken. I really don't see the
value.

To prallel the idea SS Wiking and other units did not vanish because the
parent territory was under threat, but seemed to serve until the end of the
war (because they had little option?)

 If I have the full 6-5 on the board, maybe I buy some Vichy 4-5. But if I
don't have all the 6-5 on the board why would I want to get a 4-5 for twice
the production points? Again, it is only when the personnel points are gone
and that tends to be towards the end of the game.

Let me ask the question a different way.

Why should a Ukrainian 4-5 cost 2 production points to build and a Vichy 4-5
cost 4 (or is it 12 to account for the 1-5 KG cadre) production points to
build? I agree that they shouldn't be as good as the German infantry
division, I'm just not sure why they should be more expensive than the
Ukrainian division. Everything you cite for the French would have gone in
spades for the Ukrainians.

Yes, and no...there is a world of a difference between the French, who had
charted a much more imaginative independent course before the war, and the
Ukrainians, who held deep seated resentments against the more 'colonial'
activities of the new owners of the former Russian empire. i.E. The
ukrainans were far more ready to fight for their 'freedom' and even the
scores, whilst the French were far more likely ambivalent. So French
recruitment to 'the cause' would be a much harder prospect, and require more
'resources to instill loyalty, such as skilled officers welded to the new
order ( a scarce resource) and better equipment to reinforce their firepower
and confidence, plus a stiffening of German personnel and equipment.

I would not intend them to be so relatively disproportionate...

At the same time I do not raise great objections to your proposal, merely
seeing the obverse of the coin, if the units were like the Ukrainian, then
they would be my prefferred recruitment, which in turn would seem to be an
illogical turn of events, thus the basis for 'loading ' costs such that the
economic imperatives drove you in a different direction at first...

Take it one step further. What would you give as the German to get 10 UK
8-10 flips in 1940? Would you get up the chance to build 20 personnel point
free units (which are above the current counter limit) at double the arms
cost to get the flips? Would you as the UK player think it is a fair deal to
trade the 10 flips to keep the German from getting the 20 extra divisions in
the counter mix?

In 1940 I would not so reequip the French units (which would likely shadow
the historical treatment)

But in 1943, the restriction might be less invidious, and in 1944, such
french units might be actively sought. Again, this might parallel history.
the 1940 cost equation makes little sense...but then itrw it also makes no
real seanse either...

As the UK player what was supposed to be an incentive to get me to commit
the BEF to France is a don't care. The 10 flips are going to hurt me as the
allies a lot more than the potential for the Germans to build some extra
weak but expensive units. So I won't send the BEF, the Germans will likely
never build the Vichy units and life continues.

As to the Shipping, I don't think the 3 SURF and 3 MS really do it. Partly
because it doesn't reflect reality. The 3 SURF and 3 MS would not be useable
in the Med (where the French Fleet was when France Surrendered). They would
make a sea lion a bit more attractive, but then you have the question of how
they got from the Med to the channel to link up with the Germans.

After the fall of France, they would need only to get to the Atlantic ports,
with the Luftwaffe the possibility of penetrating the channel lies open. 3
surfs represents some balance of qualitative force the the Germans might get
operational that year for action against the RN, sufficient to boost the
naval forces of Germany, coupled with the German plan for an early sealion
(option on), then bouncing the channel might well be possible, sufficing to
bring off ta British collapse in the British Isles.

What they would have done is two things. First, Gibraltar would have been in
air Range of French North Africa bases. This would have greatly reduced the
Germans ability to project sea power into the western Med.

Well, put it this way, Gibraltar is not an effective base for allied
airpower, and faced with a hostile southern shore (controlled by an active
Luftwaffe backed by french ground crews and organisation., as well as a
potentially unfriendly northern, Spanish, shore, precludes the RN from
operating out of the Rock to support Malta. Gibraltar might be maintained
(against light opposition), but beyond that Malta could not be supported.

Now if you gave the Italians some SURF and made the Med naval rules like the
North Sea rules it might work. Second, they would have provided more
ships/escorts to enable more supplies into the middle Med. Of course the
reality was that with enigma the UK was reading the Axis mail. They would
task a recon plane to fly where a supply ship would be, then follow up with
an attack (to hide the fact the location came through enigma). So there is a
decent chance that in the real world there might have been a temporary surge
of supply (just more ships allows that), but the UK would have just put more
effort into sinking them since they already had the key ingredient of
knowing where the ships would be.

I think the ability to ship with a chance that the UK fleet shows up to
finish off the Italian/Vichy fleet works best. You can implement it in the
board game with some errata (no new units needed) and a die roll every time
you use the shipping capability. The roll table should include if the UK has
only minor ports or has major ports in that part of the Med. So if the
Germans suppress Gibraltar, then their chances of shipping troops in the
western Med should go up. Likewise if they suppress Suez and Alexandria,
then they should have a better chance to ship units/supply in the eastern
Med.

Which looks in interesting idea...

-|steve|-

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