{Spam?} [WarInEur] France 1940 and changing French unit strength - Addendum

[Hansen]

So when does the German tend to notice the shortage of PP, hitting the
counter limit, etc.? It's toward the end game. When I can buy Vichy French
units that will disappear when France is re-taken. I really don't see the
value.

 

 If I have the full 6-5 on the board, maybe I buy some Vichy 4-5. But if I
don't have all the 6-5 on the board why would I want to get a 4-5 for twice
the production points? Again, it is only when the personnel points are gone
and that tends to be towards the end of the game.

 

Let me ask the question a different way.

 

Why should a Ukrainian 4-5 cost 2 production points to build and a Vichy 4-5
cost 4 (or is it 12 to account for the 1-5 KG cadre) production points to
build? I agree that they shouldn't be as good as the German infantry
division, I'm just not sure why they should be more expensive than the
Ukrainian division. Everything you cite for the French would have gone in
spades for the Ukrainians.

 

Take it one step further. What would you give as the German to get 10 UK
8-10 flips in 1940? Would you get up the chance to build 20 personnel point
free units (which are above the current counter limit) at double the arms
cost to get the flips? Would you as the UK player think it is a fair deal to
trade the 10 flips to keep the German from getting the 20 extra divisions in
the counter mix?

 

As the UK player what was supposed to be an incentive to get me to commit
the BEF to France is a don't care. The 10 flips are going to hurt me as the
allies a lot more than the potential for the Germans to build some extra
weak but expensive units. So I won't send the BEF, the Germans will likely
never build the Vichy units and life continues.

 

As to the Shipping, I don't think the 3 SURF and 3 MS really do it. Partly
because it doesn't reflect reality. The 3 SURF and 3 MS would not be useable
in the Med (where the French Fleet was when France Surrendered). They would
make a sea lion a bit more attractive, but then you have the question of how
they got from the Med to the channel to link up with the Germans.

 

What they would have done is two things. First, Gibraltar would have been in
air Range of French North Africa bases. This would have greatly reduced the
Germans ability to project sea power into the western Med. Now if you gave
the Italians some SURF and made the Med naval rules like the North Sea rules
it might work. Second, they would have provided more ships/escorts to enable
more supplies into the middle Med. Of course the reality was that with
enigma the UK was reading the Axis mail. They would task a recon plane to
fly where a supply ship would be, then follow up with an attack (to hide the
fact the location came through enigma). So there is a decent chance that in
the real world there might have been a temporary surge of supply (just more
ships allows that), but the UK would have just put more effort into sinking
them since they already had the key ingredient of knowing where the ships
would be.

 

I think the ability to ship with a chance that the UK fleet shows up to
finish off the Italian/Vichy fleet works best. You can implement it in the
board game with some errata (no new units needed) and a die roll every time
you use the shipping capability. The roll table should include if the UK has
only minor ports or has major ports in that part of the Med. So if the
Germans suppress Gibraltar, then their chances of shipping troops in the
western Med should go up. Likewise if they suppress Suez and Alexandria,
then they should have a better chance to ship units/supply in the eastern
Med.

 

  _____  

From: sgminfo [mailto:sgminfo at aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:40 PM
To: Hansen
Cc: CarlAugustRuppSr at aol.com; kentsue at cox.net; warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: {Spam?} [WarInEur] France 1940 and changing French unit
strength - Addendum

 

Hansen wrote: 

I like the concept of the "active Vichy ally" you described, but I am not
sure about the production idea. The Ukrainian division's appeal was it cost
1/3 of a regular German division and gave you 2/3 the combat value. A
Ukrainian 1-5 KG repair cost half the cost of a German 1-5KG repair and
netted you 2/3 the resulting combat value. By charging 2x, you get a 2/3
combat value infantry division for 2x the cost. How could Speer resist such
an offer? I'm not sure how you justify that arming French would have had
greater resistance than arming the Ukrainians. I would make the costs the
same as a Ukrainian division, with the armor going for 4 production points
(in keeping with the 1/3 costs, 2/3 combat value ratio).

 

But now ask the question, what good is it. A few more "cheap divisions" is
nice. The infantry will make good coastal defense forces and the armor can
probably find a use in Russia. But as the UK, I would probably be willing to
trade keeping 10 UK divisions for the Germans getting these 20 divisions.
Even if the divisions were just handed to the Germans. Now add in the
Germans have to "buy" the units and it becomes clear for the UK to blow off
France.

 

But if you add in the increased shipping to NA, now failing to fight in
France makes the consequences much greater. Put both the 20 divisions and
the Mediterranean shipping and you have something worth the UK fighting in
France for. It is also not a game stopper. The extras make a NA campaign
viable, but not a sure thing. 

 

  _____  

Under this scheme, the attraction is, the divisions consume no manpower, and
are in excess of the German army limits.

Why the costs on arms?

Because these divisions are getting equipment at opportunity cost
levels...raising and training foreign divisions is more expensive in many
ways than national divisions, training officers, bilingal issues, but also
the issue' of equipping your former enemies, these costs cannot be
represented easily in any other way...but note you are arguing against the
formation of these forces exactly as I am surmising the SS and others would
argue, also allowing non committed foreign nationals access to weapons and
tactics that could be turned against their teachers. i.e. putting these
costs on the formations means that you will not simply equip yourself with
these forces without a care. These internal doubts would act as a serious
restriction on allocating materiel to them...

such restrictions put the brake on unlimited replacement tactics etc etc on
the hard pressed army later in the war, units so based upon these formations
getting mangled, would be well down the queue for the pick of the crop of
re-equipment.

(A bit like offering to reequip the Rumanian (or Italian) Armoured
formations with Tigers- not impossible, but it isn't going to happen.?)

The 'costs involved' restrict your taking advantage of these formations
until later in the war, when manpower starts to dry up, yet the arms point
situation starts to relax a bit more...

These costs are a deferrment incentive

It clearly makes French allied forces a second best alternative, otherwise
you will go for them as the primary cutting edge, rather as the Romans began
to deploy the Auxilia in their army.

As to shipping...

a thought.
As an active French ally,
Simply add 3 Surfs and 3 MS to the German fleets....

That strikes the most fear into the British player, and was their primary
concern throughout this period...the germans getting hold of the French
Fleet.

Again, this is easily adapted and used in the board game, without any
changes other than a few notes in the rules booklet...


-|steve|-

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