[WarInEur] RE: counting to 5 in the set up

Sat Feb 23 10:02:59 EST 2008

We always assumed in Louisville that within 5 hexes and no more than 5 hexes away meant the same thing. 
Based on the posts, this is far from self-evident. As will be noted below, this is far from a trivial
point. 

If a unit is no more than 5 hexes away from a specified hex then it can land on the specified hex by 
moving 5 hexes (or less) in the direction of the specified. THis is because the gap between the city 
and the unit is never more than 4 hexes. 

I always played that within five hexes of a city means a gap of 4 hexes is allowed: hence the count
begins in the hex adjacent to the city and ends with the hex of the unit being placed (or supplied or 
Air supported) 

I always had a problem with the definition of border/border hex, as the rules never properly spelled out 
what this meant except in one case that seemed to make no sense: FINNISH UNITS MAY NOT MOVE
MORE THAN 10 HEXES FROM FINLAND (INCLUSIVE) I.E. BETWEEN THE UNITS HEX AND THE UNITS HEX
AND THE FINNISH BORDER THERE MAY BE ONLY EIGHT HEXES. 

The consensus I see regarding the border restriction is that the frontier is the dividing line between 
the hexes rather than the adjacent hexes themselves. Thus within the hexes of the border/frontier 
include only the adjecent hexes, the hexes adjacent to those, and the hexes adjacent to those hexes. 
The biggest allowed gap between a unit and the frontier hexes is one hex.  Between the unit and the
frontier itself there can be a gap of two hexes. 
Given that the SPI rules added the word inclusive, this is the only acceptable interpretation: ALL UNITS 
NOT INDICATED AS BEING PART OF A "RESERVE" must be placed within the geographical location given 
AND WITHIN THREE HEXES (INCLUSIVE) OF START LINE.  

The explanation for the goofy finnish example is that Hex #1 in the count is on the Finnish side of the 
dividing line, Hex #2 is on the russian side, Hex #10 is the hex containing the unit.   The rule is miswritten:
moving 10 hexes from a hex of finland would create a cap of 9 hexes.  What has been prohibbited is BEING 
more than 10 inclusive hexes from Finland is.  However, a Finnish unit might be oblidged to retreat
(rather than move) into such a hex which would supposedly be OK, hence the rule specified movement. 

The proper rule should have been:  
    Finnish units may not move into any hex that more than 9 hexes past the Finnish border. 
============================================================================
Regarding the reserves.  The SPI rule reads "RESERVE UNITS MAY BE PLACED ANYWHERE WITHIN FIVE 
HEXES OF THE NAMED CITY HEX:   

For me, the three salient features of this rule are  (a) 'inclusive' was not employed (b) the word named 
would normally be redundent in this contex.(c) 'Hex' is singular rather than plural. 
>From (B) and (C) I conclude that the count for Moscow and Leningrad eminates from the dot rather than 
from the personnel center symbols. From (a) I conclude that a gap of four(4) hexes between the reserve 
HQ city and the unit is perfectly acceptable. 

If had written the rules I would have written 
Defininition: A Frontier Hex is any hex which borders hexes controlled by an unfriendly power. 
Set up rule: Units not in reserves must be either set up in frontier hexes, or no more than 2 
hexes from a frontier hex. Units in Reserves may be set up no more than 5 hexes from the designated 
HQ hex for its reserve. 
================================================================================
WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT? 

To preclude an Axis Turn-1 break through, the USSR must set up a minimum number of combat factors in the 
four hexes closest to the Frontier.   The forces detailed to Poland, Bessabarabia and LIthuania are insufficient 
to set up both an overrun-proof first line and an overrun-proof back up line.  Soen in long as the Axis has an entirely
free set up as if provided for in War in the East an masssive breakthrough will ensue. 

But if the reserve forces are allowed to set up far enough westward or the Frontier forces are set up far enough eastward 
the second line can be created using troops on map as of 4/6/41. The set up provided with CWIE-2 Barbarossa Scenario is 
one such defense.  The Soviet situation after turn 1 of CWIE-2 is thus a far cry from its RW situation, in which Von Manstein's 56th Panzer Corp captured an intact bridge over the Divina on the 26th of June.   In WIE and WitE this sort of break through is exactly what happens whenever the Riga Reserve concentrates too close to the coast.  

ALthough the long term threat is less acute in the vicinity of Odessa, the overall situation is the same. Unless the Reserve
and Frontier troops intermingle, the rail lines into Odessa are in danger of being cut during the Axis mechanized phase. 

Now as a so-called Panzer pusher I would delight in seeing the rules tightened to preclude the setups found in CWIE and also the 
ones I normally employ for solo play in favor of something more historical. 

BOB in Louisville 
> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:00:28 -0500 > 1. Counting to 5 (Hansen)> 2. RE: Counting to 5 (Chuck Sutherland)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:25:44 -0600> From: "Hansen" <ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net>> Subject: [WarInEur] Counting to 5> To: <warineur at mailman.halisp.net>> Message-ID:> <200802211728.m1LHSGQp001351 at inet06.hamilton.harte-lyne.ca>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > Kent writes:> Okay! Does anyone have a problem with this rules interpretation?> > "Within" is inclusive of the hex adjacent to the border but exclusive of the> > personnel center hex.> > Would it be acceptable to expand this to cover those personnel centers which> > consist of multiple hexes (Moscow & Leningrad) by inserting "a" in place of > the "the" in the above sentence?> > It would then read:> > "Within" is inclusive of the hex adjacent to the border but exclusive of a > personnel center hex.> > This would allow Soviet units belonging to a Reserve District to setup up to> > five hexes away from any of the Personnel Centers comprising the City.> > The alternative is to use the hex containing the Moscow and Leningrad cities> > as the center point.> > John replies:> I always counted the personnel center hex as the first hex. But I can see> the argument both ways. One way of looking at this is not counting the hex> with the personnel center would say it is not included in the set up (i.e.> it was not counted out when you went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). So you can't put troops> in the personnel center hex, which is obviously to me what was not intended> by the rule.> > I don't have time to do this, but I would look at the map and see if one> interpretation or another would have a significant effect. Examples would be> reaching a Crimea choke point, access to a better rail road hex (not just> one further down the track), not being able to fit all the forces if the> personnel hex was not counted, crossing a bay, etc.> > Absent some advantage or twist that just doesn't ring true historically, I> don't have heartburn for either interpretation.> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:42:12 -0500> From: Chuck Sutherland <csutherland at dpcs.org>> Subject: RE: [WarInEur] Counting to 5> To: Hansen <ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net>,> "warineur at mailman.halisp.net" <warineur at mailman.halisp.net>> Message-ID:> <B31F76644FDF1C4289B14DDCC739294850DF523634 at exchsrvr.dpcs.org>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > This is a non-issue! The border is a hexside the center is a hex, just count hexes, its really easy! ;)> > > -----Original Message-----> From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Hansen> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:26 PM> To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net> Subject: [WarInEur] Counting to 5> > Kent writes:> Okay! Does anyone have a problem with this rules interpretation?> > "Within" is inclusive of the hex adjacent to the border but exclusive of the> > personnel center hex.> > Would it be acceptable to expand this to cover those personnel centers which> > consist of multiple hexes (Moscow & Leningrad) by inserting "a" in place of> the "the" in the above sentence?> > It would then read:> > "Within" is inclusive of the hex adjacent to the border but exclusive of a> personnel center hex.> > This would allow Soviet units belonging to a Reserve District to setup up to> > five hexes away from any of the Personnel Centers comprising the City.> > The alternative is to use the hex containing the Moscow and Leningrad cities> > as the center point.> > John replies:> I always counted the personnel center hex as the first hex. But I can see> the argument both ways. One way of looking at this is not counting the hex> with the personnel center would say it is not included in the set up (i.e.> it was not counted out when you went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). So you can't put troops> in the personnel center hex, which is obviously to me what was not intended> by the rule.> > I don't have time to do this, but I would look at the map and see if one> interpretation or another would have a significant effect. Examples would be> reaching a Crimea choke point, access to a better rail road hex (not just> one further down the track), not being able to fit all the forces if the> personnel hex was not counted, crossing a bay, etc.> > Absent some advantage or twist that just doesn't ring true historically, I> don't have heartburn for either interpretation.> > _______________________________________________> WarInEur mailing list> WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net> http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur> > > > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> WarInEur mailing list> WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net> http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur> > > End of WarInEur Digest, Vol 43, Issue 9> ***************************************
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