[WarInEur] Combat results oddity
Don Lazov
dlazov at comcast.net
Thu Aug 28 00:23:14 EDT 2008
Exactly what I have been trying to say for a year!
Thanks Kent.
Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> Well I'm of two minds on the subject myself. As you have indicated
> having the minors attack the Germans in an orgy of Suicide attacks
> seems gamy. On the other hand, these invasions were not the bloodless
> victories the Board game or CWIE1 would have us believe. So attacking
> the Germans with units that are already lost and inflicting some
> attrition actually seems more historical.
>
> For example the "invasion" and conquest of Poland usually takes 2
> turns, but with attrition it takes 3 or 4 more turns to recover. This
> recovery time pretty much eliminates the possibility of a fall
> campaign into France. So in this case, it reflects history pretty well.
>
> Belgium and Holland fall on the first turn without any German
> casualties. Here again the attacks to cause attrition give notional
> casualties to the Germans in the sense that the units will need to
> pause to recover their full strength. Again this seems to reflect
> history pretty well.
>
> Now in game turns attrition is a two edged sword. No position is
> invulnerable, but the mere act of moving to contact is going to cost a
> one column down shift in the combat odds. So flips increase
> exponentially. Moving to contact and then waiting to recover to full
> strength wastes a turn and the clock is ticking on the fortification
> timer.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Chuck Sutherland <mailto:csutherland at dpcs.org>
> *To:* Kent & Sue Haunschild <mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ; Don Lazov
> <mailto:dlazov at comcast.net> ; Gary Krockover
> <mailto:cmbb at garykrockover.com>
> *Cc:* Warineur <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:25 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
> I'm sorry but this smells of a improved version of the suicide
> paras! Has anyone kept the 1-3 and other units to attack by
> themselves stacks of Germans to attrite them? And in this strategy
> have you had the Germans para into the Maginot line along with
> ground forces to open up the front?
>
>
>
> //Chuck Sutherland//
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
> <mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net>
> [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] *On Behalf Of *Kent &
> Sue Haunschild
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:48 AM
> *To:* Don Lazov; Gary Krockover
> *Cc:* Warineur
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
>
>
> I am not finding that France rolls over even with attrition when
> starting from 1939. The ability to strip the colonies, use the
> French 1-3 Cav and 2-4 Mtn to provide ZOC in compliance with the
> rules but actually under garrisoning the Italian border, and
> preposition the remainder of the French in a 3 deep four high band
> across Belgian border insures that the French are ready for the
> onslaught. The inability to use rail movement, forcemarch, or the
> extra movement points for air interdiction are a non-issue since
> all the French units are propositioned.
>
>
>
> Then if the Belgian and Dutch copy the earlier Polish behavior
> (which was to attack as many units as possible after the Germans
> have captured the critical hexes (Warsaw, Hague, Brussels, and
> Amsterdam) but before the units are removed from the board) then
> they can cause significant attrition to the German units. True
> these are suicide attacks and rather pointless in the board game
> but with attrition it will take the German units out of the fight
> for 2 to 3 turns.
>
>
>
> If the French then rotate attrited units out of the French line
> and into the Maginot line hexes using rail transport they can
> insure a supply of unattrited units and can use the attrited units
> to occupy the Maginot line and recover rapidly since the Allied
> ZOC extend into the West Wall hexes but not vice versa.
>
>
>
> In fact by judicious counter attacks against the panzer units the
> Allies can insure that the Axis will get nothing but 2 or 3 to 1
> attacker odds at best and will have to make their own low odds
> attacks to wear down the French to the point that they can start
> pushing the line back.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Don Lazov <mailto:dlazov at comcast.net>
>
> *To:* Gary Krockover <mailto:cmbb at garykrockover.com>
>
> *Cc:* Eric Gerber <mailto:cgerber at socal.rr.com> ; Kent & Sue
> Haunschild <mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ; Warineur
> <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:03 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
>
>
> Attrition adds the ability to get historical results, in
> France or Russia for the Axis, North Africa for the CW, Italy
> for the Allies, and Russia in 43-44, and finally back in
> France in 44.
>
> Using the attrition option you have to think more
> operationally then just pushing counters around or following
> the old recipe check list routine for WIE (i.e., Poland,
> Denmark, Yugo in 39, Norway and France in 40, with the CW or
> SU nothing to do). France does not have much to do but to
> capitulate anyway (historically they never had the stomach nor
> resources to fight in 40 anyway). However the CW can fight
> back in NA (with attrition) and cause all hell to break loose.
> Likewise in 41 the Soviets do have some capabilities near the
> end of the year to fight back if they husband their forces
> effectively.
>
> In fact in a recent play test in 44 after the allies go ashore
> in the west the Germans were counter attacking and stuffing
> the Allies in the beach head, but we are just at the point
> that the Germans will collapse (the attrition levels are
> getting dangerous 30%-45% in some of the SS units. Meanwhile
> on the Eastern Front I full scale southern counter attack has
> crush a lot of Soviet units, but agian the attrition is
> causing the Germans to stop and expecting a major Soviet
> counter thrust in that region as well.
>
> Attrition is the key to both the CW/US, Soviet and Axis,
> learning to master it is also key.
>
>
> Gary Krockover wrote:
>
> Nope. We thought that we'd play our first game based off of
> how the board game works and plays. I think we've learned our
> lesson now.
>
> GJK
>
> At 06:08 PM 8/26/2008, Don Lazov wrote:
>
> Are you using the new Attrition Option? I hold the record of 4
> weeks knocking out France. Almost got Russia in 41 but the
> weather and my units being down to 20%-30% stopped me, then
> the Soviets counter attacked until they were down to 30-40%
> and stopped and we froze immobile and limp.
>
> Hum, where have I read that before?...only with attrition.
>
> Gary Krockover wrote:
>
> In my pbem game (me as the Allies), Germany is having a heck
> of a time defeating France; it's the 3rd week, 8th cycle, of
> 1940 and he's just now barely reaching Paris. We can't imagine
> that Russia would ever have a chance of falling.
>
> The sad part of it is, that as the Allies, I've rarely
> counter-attacked because the best that I can muster is a poor
> 3:1 attack that would more times than not be more detrimental
> to me, so I just fortify and sit there which takes away from
> the enjoyment factor a bit.
>
> Again though, we are both new to the game, so perhaps there's
> some tactics or approaches that are unique to the game that we
> need to learn.
>
> GJK
>
> At 01:55 AM 8/25/2008, Eric Gerber wrote:
>
> The original game was about making lots of 3-1 attacks. This
> is what allow you to push the line until it broke.
>
> Eric
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
> <mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net> [
> mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net]On
> <mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net%5DOn> Behalf Of
> Kent & Sue Haunschild
>
> Sent: August 24, 2008 10:57 PM
>
> To: Warineur; Gary Krockover
>
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
> The the board game CRT has been coded into CWIE2 so they are
> identical. Normally, I never make low odds attacks because
> they are so adverse for the attacker.
>
> However, the attrition option almost requires the use of low
> odds attacks to soak off the ememy strength. It was while
> playing a hotseat game that it occurred to me that when the
> defender is flipped he always has the option to retreat but
> the attacker doesn't. Which given the rules regarding flips
> always have the retreat option seemed odd. So I brought it up
> for comment.
>
> One of the reasons the Static division were given the attack
> factor of one was so that it could participate in a low odds
> attack and hope for a both retreat result and maybe retreat
> out of a pocket Otherwise they are just about helpless
>
> Expanding on this idea and modifying the CRT by adding some Ar
> results and allowing the Attacker the retreat option if
> flipped by a Ae or Aex result "seem" to be an expansion of
> that idea and should give the Allies and Soviets some more
> combat options when on CRT4.
>
> For example-
>
> Maybe the 1:2 odds which is now all Ae would be changed to Ae,
> Ae, Aex, Aex, Ar, Ar. So there would be a 1/3 chance for
> complete dietruction of the attacker, a 1/3 chance of an
> exchange result with a flip and attacker retreat option
> following and a 1/3 the the attacker would be forced to
> retreat or flip to hold the hex.
>
>
>
> Other columns woul be similiarly modified but you get the
> idea. Players have complained that the Allies and Soviets
> have such crappy CRT's that it is impossible to make an
> attack. This or a similiar change would rectify that to a
> certain extent.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gary Krockover <mailto:cmbb at garykrockover.com>
>
> To: Kent & Sue Haunschild <mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ; Warineur
> <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
>
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:48 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
> I'm new to the game, but along these lines I've noticed that
> the CRT's are very defensively balanced (i.e., very
> non-"bloody"). A 4:1 or 5:1 attack even only does a DR on a 5
> or a 6 with the rest of the results being adverse to the
> attacker. This just means that you really have to plan and
> coordinate your attacks (using air support and optimal
> combined arms attacks). Is this normal in the boardgame
> version as well (I'm coming from the CWIE2 beta-tester point
> of view)?
>
> GJK
>
> At 11:29 PM 8/24/2008, Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
>
> On combat results of 1/2ex, Ex, or De if either unit is
> eliminated it can flip and retreat. If the Result is a Dr or
> Br the defender can choose to flip and hold the hex and the
> attacker can choose to flip and advance on a Br. However, if
> the result is a Ae or Aex the battlegroups cannot retreat.
> Seems kind of odd.
>
>
>
> [11.32] At the moment that a unit is reduced to its
> Battlegroup, the Battlegroup has the option to retreat one
> hex. In some cases, this will save the unit from being Overrun
> in the Enemy Mechanized Movement Phase.<?xml:namespace prefix
> = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
>
>
>
> [12.63] Whenever a Kampfgruppe or a Battlegroup is formed as a
> result of combat, that unit has the option to retreat one hex.
> This retreat must be made immediately during the Combat Phase,
> before any other combat is resolved.
>
>
>
>
>
> Here are two rules from the DG living rules. Why don't they
> apply to Ae or Aex results. Also how come there is no Ar. It
> seems to me that it is more likely that a attacker will
> retreat rather than suffer elimination.
>
>
>
>
>
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