[WarInEur] Combat results oddity
Don Lazov
dlazov at comcast.net
Thu Aug 28 00:19:15 EDT 2008
As the Axis with Attrition and starting from the 39 game I have taken
out France in 4, 6 and 8 turns. The W.Allies counterattacked some but
the key is have a reserve. I have 4x 10-8, and 4x 6-5 in Reserve and
then I used these to punch through and take Paris.
Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> I am not finding that France rolls over even with attrition when
> starting from 1939. The ability to strip the colonies, use the French
> 1-3 Cav and 2-4 Mtn to provide ZOC in compliance with the rules but
> actually under garrisoning the Italian border, and preposition the
> remainder of the French in a 3 deep four high band across Belgian
> border insures that the French are ready for the onslaught. The
> inability to use rail movement, forcemarch, or the extra movement
> points for air interdiction are a non-issue since all the French units
> are propositioned.
>
> Then if the Belgian and Dutch copy the earlier Polish behavior (which
> was to attack as many units as possible after the Germans have
> captured the critical hexes (Warsaw, Hague, Brussels, and Amsterdam)
> but before the units are removed from the board) then they can cause
> significant attrition to the German units. True these are suicide
> attacks and rather pointless in the board game but with attrition it
> will take the German units out of the fight for 2 to 3 turns.
>
> If the French then rotate attrited units out of the French line and
> into the Maginot line hexes using rail transport they can insure a
> supply of unattrited units and can use the attrited units to occupy
> the Maginot line and recover rapidly since the Allied ZOC extend into
> the West Wall hexes but not vice versa.
>
> In fact by judicious counter attacks against the panzer units the
> Allies can insure that the Axis will get nothing but 2 or 3 to 1
> attacker odds at best and will have to make their own low odds attacks
> to wear down the French to the point that they can start pushing the
> line back.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Don Lazov <mailto:dlazov at comcast.net>
> *To:* Gary Krockover <mailto:cmbb at garykrockover.com>
> *Cc:* Eric Gerber <mailto:cgerber at socal.rr.com> ; Kent & Sue
> Haunschild <mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ; Warineur
> <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:03 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>
> Attrition adds the ability to get historical results, in France or
> Russia for the Axis, North Africa for the CW, Italy for the
> Allies, and Russia in 43-44, and finally back in France in 44.
>
> Using the attrition option you have to think more operationally
> then just pushing counters around or following the old recipe
> check list routine for WIE (i.e., Poland, Denmark, Yugo in 39,
> Norway and France in 40, with the CW or SU nothing to do). France
> does not have much to do but to capitulate anyway (historically
> they never had the stomach nor resources to fight in 40 anyway).
> However the CW can fight back in NA (with attrition) and cause all
> hell to break loose. Likewise in 41 the Soviets do have some
> capabilities near the end of the year to fight back if they
> husband their forces effectively.
>
> In fact in a recent play test in 44 after the allies go ashore in
> the west the Germans were counter attacking and stuffing the
> Allies in the beach head, but we are just at the point that the
> Germans will collapse (the attrition levels are getting dangerous
> 30%-45% in some of the SS units. Meanwhile on the Eastern Front I
> full scale southern counter attack has crush a lot of Soviet
> units, but agian the attrition is causing the Germans to stop and
> expecting a major Soviet counter thrust in that region as well.
>
> Attrition is the key to both the CW/US, Soviet and Axis, learning
> to master it is also key.
>
>
> Gary Krockover wrote:
>> Nope. We thought that we'd play our first game based off of how
>> the board game works and plays. I think we've learned our lesson
>> now.
>>
>> GJK
>>
>> At 06:08 PM 8/26/2008, Don Lazov wrote:
>>> Are you using the new Attrition Option? I hold the record of 4
>>> weeks knocking out France. Almost got Russia in 41 but the
>>> weather and my units being down to 20%-30% stopped me, then the
>>> Soviets counter attacked until they were down to 30-40% and
>>> stopped and we froze immobile and limp.
>>>
>>> Hum, where have I read that before?...only with attrition.
>>>
>>> Gary Krockover wrote:
>>>> In my pbem game (me as the Allies), Germany is having a heck of
>>>> a time defeating France; it's the 3rd week, 8th cycle, of 1940
>>>> and he's just now barely reaching Paris. We can't imagine that
>>>> Russia would ever have a chance of falling.
>>>>
>>>> The sad part of it is, that as the Allies, I've rarely
>>>> counter-attacked because the best that I can muster is a poor
>>>> 3:1 attack that would more times than not be more detrimental
>>>> to me, so I just fortify and sit there which takes away from
>>>> the enjoyment factor a bit.
>>>>
>>>> Again though, we are both new to the game, so perhaps there's
>>>> some tactics or approaches that are unique to the game that we
>>>> need to learn.
>>>>
>>>> GJK
>>>>
>>>> At 01:55 AM 8/25/2008, Eric Gerber wrote:
>>>>> The original game was about making lots of 3-1 attacks. This
>>>>> is what allow you to push the line until it broke.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
>>>>> <mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net> [
>>>>> mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net]On
>>>>> <mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net%5DOn> Behalf
>>>>> Of Kent & Sue Haunschild
>>>>> Sent: August 24, 2008 10:57 PM
>>>>> To: Warineur; Gary Krockover
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>>>>>
>>>>> The the board game CRT has been coded into CWIE2 so they
>>>>> are identical. Normally, I never make low odds attacks
>>>>> because they are so adverse for the attacker.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the attrition option almost requires the use of
>>>>> low odds attacks to soak off the ememy strength. It was
>>>>> while playing a hotseat game that it occurred to me that
>>>>> when the defender is flipped he always has the option to
>>>>> retreat but the attacker doesn't. Which given the rules
>>>>> regarding flips always have the retreat option seemed odd.
>>>>> So I brought it up for comment.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the reasons the Static division were given the
>>>>> attack factor of one was so that it could participate in a
>>>>> low odds attack and hope for a both retreat result and
>>>>> maybe retreat out of a pocket Otherwise they are just
>>>>> about helpless
>>>>>
>>>>> Expanding on this idea and modifying the CRT by adding
>>>>> some Ar results and allowing the Attacker the retreat
>>>>> option if flipped by a Ae or Aex result "seem" to be an
>>>>> expansion of that idea and should give the Allies and
>>>>> Soviets some more combat options when on CRT4.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example-
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe the 1:2 odds which is now all Ae would be changed to
>>>>> Ae, Ae, Aex, Aex, Ar, Ar. So there would be a 1/3 chance
>>>>> for complete dietruction of the attacker, a 1/3 chance of
>>>>> an exchange result with a flip and attacker retreat option
>>>>> following and a 1/3 the the attacker would be forced to
>>>>> retreat or flip to hold the hex.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Other columns woul be similiarly modified but you get the
>>>>> idea. Players have complained that the Allies and Soviets
>>>>> have such crappy CRT's that it is impossible to make an
>>>>> attack. This or a similiar change would rectify that to a
>>>>> certain extent.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Gary Krockover <mailto:cmbb at garykrockover.com>
>>>>> To: Kent & Sue Haunschild <mailto:kentsue at cox.net> ;
>>>>> Warineur <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
>>>>> I'm new to the game, but along these lines I've
>>>>> noticed that the CRT's are very defensively balanced
>>>>> (i.e., very non-"bloody"). A 4:1 or 5:1 attack even
>>>>> only does a DR on a 5 or a 6 with the rest of the
>>>>> results being adverse to the attacker. This just
>>>>> means that you really have to plan and coordinate your
>>>>> attacks (using air support and optimal combined arms
>>>>> attacks). Is this normal in the boardgame version as
>>>>> well (I'm coming from the CWIE2 beta-tester point of
>>>>> view)?
>>>>> GJK
>>>>> At 11:29 PM 8/24/2008, Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
>>>>>> On combat results of 1/2ex, Ex, or De if either
>>>>>> unit is eliminated it can flip and retreat. If
>>>>>> the Result is a Dr or Br the defender can choose
>>>>>> to flip and hold the hex and the attacker can
>>>>>> choose to flip and advance on a Br. However, if
>>>>>> the result is a Ae or Aex the battlegroups cannot
>>>>>> retreat. Seems kind of odd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [11.32] At the moment that a unit is reduced to
>>>>>> its Battlegroup, the Battlegroup has the option
>>>>>> to retreat one hex. In some cases, this will save
>>>>>> the unit from being Overrun in the Enemy
>>>>>> Mechanized Movement Phase.<?xml:namespace prefix
>>>>>> = o ns =
>>>>>> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [12.63] Whenever a Kampfgruppe or a Battlegroup
>>>>>> is formed as a result of combat, that unit has
>>>>>> the option to retreat one hex. This retreat must
>>>>>> be made immediately during the Combat Phase,
>>>>>> before any other combat is resolved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here are two rules from the DG living rules. Why
>>>>>> don't they apply to Ae or Aex results. Also how
>>>>>> come there is no Ar. It seems to me that it is
>>>>>> more likely that a attacker will retreat rather
>>>>>> than suffer elimination.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> WarInEur mailing list
>>>>
>>>> WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net <mailto:WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net>
>>>>
>>>> http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur
>>>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.halisp.net/pipermail/warineur/attachments/20080827/e37b62e9/attachment-0001.html
More information about the WarInEur
mailing list