[WarInEur] Combat results oddity

Wed Aug 27 14:05:49 EDT 2008

Well I'm of two minds on the subject myself.  As you have indicated having the minors attack the Germans in an orgy of Suicide attacks seems gamy.  On the other hand, these invasions were not the bloodless victories the Board game or CWIE1 would have us believe.  So attacking the Germans with units that are already lost and inflicting some attrition actually seems more historical.

For example the "invasion" and conquest of Poland usually takes 2 turns, but with attrition it takes 3 or 4 more turns to recover.  This recovery time pretty much eliminates the possibility of a fall campaign into France.  So in this case, it reflects history pretty well.

Belgium and Holland fall on the first turn without any German casualties.  Here again the attacks to cause attrition give notional casualties to the Germans in the sense that the units will need to pause to recover their full strength.  Again this seems to reflect history pretty well.

Now in game turns attrition is a two edged sword.  No position is invulnerable, but the mere act of moving to contact is going to cost a one column down shift in the combat odds.  So flips increase exponentially.  Moving to contact and then waiting to recover to full strength wastes a turn and the clock is ticking on the fortification timer.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Chuck Sutherland 
  To: Kent & Sue Haunschild ; Don Lazov ; Gary Krockover 
  Cc: Warineur 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 12:25 PM
  Subject: RE: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity

  I'm sorry but this smells of a improved version of the suicide paras! Has anyone kept the 1-3 and other units to attack by themselves stacks of Germans to attrite them? And in this strategy have you had the Germans para into the Maginot line along with ground forces to open up the front? 

  Chuck Sutherland

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  From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Kent & Sue Haunschild
  Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 11:48 AM
  To: Don Lazov; Gary Krockover
  Cc: Warineur
  Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity

  I am not finding that France rolls over even with attrition when starting from 1939.  The ability to strip the colonies, use the French 1-3 Cav and 2-4 Mtn to provide ZOC in compliance with the rules but actually under garrisoning the Italian border, and preposition the remainder of the French in a 3 deep four high band across Belgian border insures that the French are ready for the onslaught.  The inability to use rail movement, forcemarch, or the extra movement points for air interdiction are a non-issue since all the French units are propositioned.

  Then if the Belgian and Dutch copy the earlier Polish behavior (which was to attack as many units as possible after the Germans have captured the critical hexes (Warsaw, Hague, Brussels, and Amsterdam) but before the units are removed from the board) then they can cause significant attrition to the German units.  True these are suicide attacks and rather pointless in the board game but with attrition it will take the German units out of the fight for 2 to 3 turns.

  If the French then rotate attrited units out of the French line and into the Maginot line hexes using rail transport they can insure a supply of unattrited units and can use the attrited units to occupy the Maginot line and recover rapidly since the Allied ZOC extend into the West Wall hexes but not vice versa.

  In fact by judicious counter attacks against the panzer units the Allies can insure that the Axis will get nothing but 2 or 3 to 1 attacker odds at best and will have to make their own low odds attacks to wear down the French to the point that they can start pushing the line back.  

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Don Lazov 

    To: Gary Krockover 

    Cc: Eric Gerber ; Kent & Sue Haunschild ; Warineur 

    Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:03 AM

    Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity

    Attrition adds the ability to get historical results, in France or Russia for the Axis, North Africa for the CW, Italy for the Allies, and Russia in 43-44, and finally back in France in 44.

    Using the attrition option you have to think more operationally then just pushing counters around or following the old recipe check list routine for WIE (i.e., Poland, Denmark, Yugo in 39, Norway and France in 40, with the CW or SU nothing to do). France does not have much to do but to capitulate anyway (historically they never had the stomach nor resources to fight in 40 anyway). However the CW can fight back in NA (with attrition) and cause all hell to break loose. Likewise in 41 the Soviets do have some capabilities near the end of the year to fight back if they husband their forces effectively.

    In fact in a recent play test in 44 after the allies go ashore in the west the Germans were counter attacking and stuffing the Allies in the beach head, but we are just at the point that the Germans will collapse (the attrition levels are getting dangerous 30%-45% in some of the SS units. Meanwhile on the Eastern Front I full scale southern counter attack has crush a lot of Soviet units, but agian the attrition is causing the Germans to stop and expecting a major Soviet counter thrust in that region as well.

    Attrition is the key to both the CW/US, Soviet and Axis, learning to master it is also key.

    Gary Krockover wrote: 

    Nope.  We thought that we'd play our first game based off of how the board game works and plays.  I think we've learned our lesson now.

    GJK

    At 06:08 PM 8/26/2008, Don Lazov wrote:

    Are you using the new Attrition Option? I hold the record of 4 weeks knocking out France. Almost got Russia in 41 but the weather and my units being down to 20%-30% stopped me, then the Soviets counter attacked until they were down to 30-40% and stopped and we froze immobile and limp.

    Hum, where have I read that before?...only with attrition.

    Gary Krockover wrote: 

    In my pbem game (me as the Allies), Germany is having a heck of a time defeating France; it's the 3rd week, 8th cycle, of 1940 and he's just now barely reaching Paris. We can't imagine that Russia would ever have a chance of falling.

    The sad part of it is, that as the Allies, I've rarely counter-attacked because the best that I can muster is a poor 3:1 attack that would more times than not be more detrimental to me, so I just fortify and sit there which takes away from the enjoyment factor a bit.

    Again though, we are both new to the game, so perhaps there's some tactics or approaches that are unique to the game that we need to learn.

    GJK 

    At 01:55 AM 8/25/2008, Eric Gerber wrote:

    The original game was about making lots of 3-1 attacks.  This is what allow you to push the line until it broke.

    Eric

    -----Original Message----- 

    From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [ mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net]On Behalf Of Kent & Sue Haunschild 

    Sent: August 24, 2008 10:57 PM 

    To: Warineur; Gary Krockover 

    Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity

    The the board game CRT has been coded into CWIE2 so they are identical.  Normally, I never make low odds attacks because they are so adverse for the attacker. 

    However, the attrition option almost requires the use of low odds attacks to soak off the ememy strength.  It was while playing a hotseat game that it occurred to me that when the defender is flipped he always has the option to retreat but the attacker doesn't.  Which given the rules regarding flips always have the retreat option seemed odd. So I brought it up for comment. 

    One of the reasons the Static division were given the attack factor of one was so that it could participate in a low odds attack and hope for a both retreat result and maybe retreat out of a pocket  Otherwise they are just about helpless 

    Expanding on this idea and modifying the CRT by adding some Ar results  and allowing the Attacker the retreat option if flipped by a Ae or Aex result "seem" to be an expansion of that idea and should give the Allies and Soviets some more combat options when on CRT4. 

    For example- 

    Maybe the 1:2 odds which is now all Ae would be changed to Ae, Ae, Aex, Aex, Ar, Ar.  So there would be a 1/3 chance for complete dietruction of the attacker, a 1/3 chance of an exchange result with a flip and attacker retreat option following and a 1/3 the the attacker would be forced to retreat or flip to hold the hex. 

    Other columns woul be similiarly modified but you get the idea.  Players have complained that the Allies and Soviets have such crappy CRT's that it is impossible to make an attack.  This or a similiar change would rectify that to a certain extent. 

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Gary Krockover 

    To: Kent & Sue Haunschild ; Warineur 

    Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:48 PM 

    Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity

    I'm new to the game, but along these lines I've noticed that the CRT's are very defensively balanced (i.e., very non-"bloody").  A 4:1 or 5:1 attack even only does a DR on a 5 or a 6 with the rest of the results being adverse to the attacker.  This just means that you really have to plan and coordinate your attacks (using air support and optimal combined arms attacks).  Is this normal in the boardgame version as well (I'm coming from the CWIE2 beta-tester point of view)?

    GJK

    At 11:29 PM 8/24/2008, Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote: 

    On combat results of 1/2ex, Ex, or De if either unit is eliminated it can flip and retreat.  If the Result is a Dr or Br the defender can choose to flip and hold the hex and the attacker can choose to flip and advance on a Br. However, if the result is a Ae or Aex the battlegroups cannot retreat.  Seems kind of odd. 

    [11.32] At the moment that a unit is reduced to its Battlegroup, the Battlegroup has the option to retreat one hex. In some cases, this will save the unit from being Overrun in the Enemy Mechanized Movement Phase.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

    [12.63] Whenever a Kampfgruppe or a Battlegroup is formed as a result of combat, that unit has the option to retreat one hex. This retreat must be made immediately during the Combat Phase, before any other combat is resolved.

    Here are two rules from the DG living rules.  Why don't they apply to Ae or Aex results.  Also how come there is no Ar.  It seems to me that it is more likely that a attacker will retreat rather than suffer elimination. 

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