[WarInEur] Combat results oddity...zzzzz

Tue Aug 26 20:35:47 EDT 2008

I have a great idea! Why don't we just eliminate the French entirely so marginal game players can cheerfully recreate the Axis luck, Allied incompetence and master strategist Hitler's visionary approval of Manstein's plan in 1940.

Why should competent Allied players' skill in CWIE slow down the super duper Whermacht?

Better yet, use rules to eliminaate all the pesky Allies and Soviets' units and declare the Germans victors in 1941!

Heil Hitler!

--- On Tue, 8/26/08, Kent & Sue Haunschild <kentsue at cox.net> wrote:

> From: Kent & Sue Haunschild <kentsue at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
> To: "Eric Gerber" <cgerber at socal.rr.com>, "Warineur" <warineur at mailman.halisp.net>, "Gary Krockover" <cmbb at garykrockover.com>
> Cc: akrockover at sbcglobal.net
> Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 5:08 PM
> Well not at the moment with CWIE2.  We can't create our
> own units as easily as we did in CWIE1.  I need to find some
> one who can edit the image file and add the 2-4 Fr, 2-4 Mtn
> Ru, the 2-4 Mtn It, and the 2-4 Mtn Bu.  Also a number of
> optional units in the DG rules aren't supported either.
> 
> Another reason that France is so tough to crack in War in
> Europe is that there are 8 IRP and 8 MRP on the
> Reinforcement Track that arrive by 3-5-40.  They are there
> primarily so that the French can replace units if the
> Germans invade in 39, but they accumulate if there is no
> attack in 39.  In the 1940 campaign these are omitted and
> the French start with none.  So at a minimum, you can delete
> these other wise these amount to about a 15% increase in the
> number of units.
> 
> You can edit the units file and change the values for the
> French units but the will still display as a 3-4.  But maybe
> that would be a good thing create a new unit with a 3-4 face
> but with 1-4 or 2-4 values.  It looks impressive, but
> disintegrates in its for exposure to combat.
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Gary Krockover 
>   To: Kent & Sue Haunschild ; Eric Gerber ; Warineur 
>   Cc: akrockover at sbcglobal.net 
>   Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 3:13 PM
>   Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
> 
> 
>   Yes, this is exactly what we are finding.  I did strip
> all of the colonies and shipped those troops home; I
> questioned myself at the time wondering if France had done
> this as well, and if not, why not - and you've provided
> that answer.
> 
>   Are there any optional rules or balances that can be used
> to bring France into line more historically?
> 
>   GJK
> 
>   At 02:51 PM 8/26/2008, Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> 
>     Your discovering one of the flaws in the simulation for
> yourself.  France is too strong militarily speaking.
>      
>     There are several reasons for this in the game.  One,
> there is no down side to stripping the French colonies of
> troops.  The reality is that the forces that France
> ststioned in the colonies were more of a garrison to keep
> the "natives" from revolting than to defend them
> from outside agressors.  Two, the French Infantry are
> represented as a uniformly trained force of 3-4's. 
> However this was not the case.  Many units lacked manpower
> and equipment. There were a lot of ill trained reserve and
> newly formed units.  I'd guess that 50% or more of the
> units on map in 1940 should be 2-4's and all the
> reinforcements should be 2-4's.
>      
>     It takes a down grading of that magnitude to give the
> Germans a chance, not a certainty, of defeating France
> within a historic timetable and with reasonable casualties. 
> This is especially true when the historic rules are not
> used.  The entire German Production system
> "presumes" a historic 1940 campaign,  when it
> takes longer or costs more, then it derails the invasion of 
> Russia and the Axis goes down in 44 not 45.
>      
>      
> 
>       ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
>       From: Gary Krockover 
> 
>       To: Eric Gerber ; Kent & Sue Haunschild ;
> Warineur 
> 
>       Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:11 PM
> 
>       Subject: RE: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
> 
> 
>       In my pbem game (me as the Allies), Germany is having
> a heck of a time defeating France; it's the 3rd week,
> 8th cycle, of 1940 and he's just now barely reaching
> Paris. We can't imagine that Russia would ever have a
> chance of falling.
> 
> 
>       The sad part of it is, that as the Allies, I've
> rarely counter-attacked because the best that I can muster
> is a poor 3:1 attack that would more times than not be more
> detrimental to me, so I just fortify and sit there which
> takes away from the enjoyment factor a bit.
> 
> 
>       Again though, we are both new to the game, so perhaps
> there's some tactics or approaches that are unique to
> the game that we need to learn.
> 
> 
>       GJK 
> 
> 
>       At 01:55 AM 8/25/2008, Eric Gerber wrote:
> 
>         The original game was about making lots of 3-1
> attacks.  This is what allow you to push the line until it
> broke.
> 
> 
> 
>         Eric
> 
>           
>           -----Original Message----- 
>           From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net [
> mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net]On Behalf Of Kent
> & Sue Haunschild 
>           Sent: August 24, 2008 10:57 PM 
>           To: Warineur; Gary Krockover 
>           Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
> 
> 
>           The the board game CRT has been coded into CWIE2
> so they are identical.  Normally, I never make low odds
> attacks because they are so adverse for the attacker. 
>             
>           However, the attrition option almost requires the
> use of low odds attacks to soak off the ememy strength.  It
> was while playing a hotseat game that it occurred to me that
> when the defender is flipped he always has the option to
> retreat but the attacker doesn't.  Which given the rules
> regarding flips always have the retreat option seemed odd.
> So I brought it up for comment. 
>             
>           One of the reasons the Static division were given
> the attack factor of one was so that it could participate in
> a low odds attack and hope for a both retreat result and
> maybe retreat out of a pocket  Otherwise they are just about
> helpless 
>             
>           Expanding on this idea and modifying the CRT by
> adding some Ar results  and allowing the Attacker the
> retreat option if flipped by a Ae or Aex result
> "seem" to be an expansion of that idea and should
> give the Allies and Soviets some more combat options when on
> CRT4. 
>             
>           For example- 
>             
>           Maybe the 1:2 odds which is now all Ae would be
> changed to Ae, Ae, Aex, Aex, Ar, Ar.  So there would be a
> 1/3 chance for complete dietruction of the attacker, a 1/3
> chance of an exchange result with a flip and attacker
> retreat option following and a 1/3 the the attacker would be
> forced to retreat or flip to hold the hex. 
>            
> 
>             
>           Other columns woul be similiarly modified but you
> get the idea.  Players have complained that the Allies and
> Soviets have such crappy CRT's that it is impossible to
> make an attack.  This or a similiar change would rectify
> that to a certain extent. 
>             ----- Original Message ----- 
>             From: Gary Krockover 
>             To: Kent & Sue Haunschild ; Warineur 
>             Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:48 PM 
>             Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Combat results oddity
> 
>             I'm new to the game, but along these lines
> I've noticed that the CRT's are very defensively
> balanced (i.e., very non-"bloody").  A 4:1 or 5:1
> attack even only does a DR on a 5 or a 6 with the rest of
> the results being adverse to the attacker.  This just means
> that you really have to plan and coordinate your attacks
> (using air support and optimal combined arms attacks).  Is
> this normal in the boardgame version as well (I'm coming
> from the CWIE2 beta-tester point of view)?
> 
>             GJK
> 
>             At 11:29 PM 8/24/2008, Kent & Sue
> Haunschild wrote:
>               On combat results of 1/2ex, Ex, or De if
> either unit is eliminated it can flip and retreat.  If the
> Result is a Dr or Br the defender can choose to flip and
> hold the hex and the attacker can choose to flip and advance
> on a Br. However, if the result is a Ae or Aex the
> battlegroups cannot retreat.  Seems kind of odd. 
>                
>               [11.32] At the moment that a unit is reduced
> to its Battlegroup, the Battlegroup has the option to
> retreat one hex. In some cases, this will save the unit from
> being Overrun in the Enemy Mechanized Movement
> Phase.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> 
>                
>               [12.63] Whenever a Kampfgruppe or a
> Battlegroup is formed as a result of combat, that unit has
> the option to retreat one hex. This retreat must be made
> immediately during the Combat Phase, before any other combat
> is resolved.
> 
> 
> 
>                
>               Here are two rules from the DG living rules. 
> Why don't they apply to Ae or Aex results.  Also how
> come there is no Ar.  It seems to me that it is more likely
> that a attacker will retreat rather than suffer elimination.
> 
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