[WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

Tue Oct 23 11:49:21 EDT 2007

Why was the rule for railroad movement of Production Centers changed? 

I have a speculation;   

In the scenario, rail usage is limited to 30 div for 8 turns in order to reflect the use of the railroads
by units not included on the map, (i.e. the production centers.)  If the production centers are
limited to 10 hexes per turn then it simply is not possible to get 5 TCs and 8 arms centers to Siberia
in those 8 turns. Therefore, someone decided that production centers should use normal rail 
movement to make this possible. 

WIE splits soviet Arms production roughly 50-50 between on Map and off map.  Historical documents 
made public since 1991 indicate that this ratio was actually more like 25-75 by the time of Barbarossa
as Stalin had been relocating Arms factories since the 1930s. Thus the Soviets did not actually 
evacuate all that much in the opening weeks of the 1941 Campaign, almost all of the 32 Arms centers
listed in the Stalingrad Scenario were already there!!  However, in WIE we are stuck for now with a fairly 
large number of Centers to the West of the 1942 start-line. So the question becomes, what should be their fate? 

I say their fate should be to be relocated to on-map hexes such as Orel, Vorhenezh and Vorishilov. only to be at risk to being overrun anyway. In my games, Moscow typically winds up with 4 training centers
and 9 arms centers, making it an economically critical axis target. BOB

FYI:  Kent mentions 7 centers overrun. This may be based on assuming that two centers on moscow which are 
mistakenly omitted from the 1941 scenario instruction were moved to siberia rather than also omitted from the 
1942 instructions.

> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:14:46 -0400> From: csutherland at gamewoodinc.com> To: kentsue at cox.net> CC: baseballnut570 at hotmail.com; warineur at mailman.halisp.net> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers> > In the original version of WitE the centers moved a max of 10 movement > points if memory serves, so why was this changed? Does anyony know?> > Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:> > I am not sure there is any good reason. Even in the new version when > > you look at the scenario setup instruction you will see that 7 arms > > centers are missing by 42. The implication is that the Germans should > > be able to catch seven in a normal game. If I go in with paras and > > additional units I might catch one or two on a good say, but in any > > kind of historical game they all get away.> > > > I have been bugging the programer for a player option that would > > restore the first edition rules into CWIE2. Unfortunately, I am a > > lone voice and when I speak I am usually branded as a panzer pusher.> > > > Maybe if more people wrote in their desire to have this as a CWIE2 > > option we could get it incorporated into the game.> > > > Kent> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > *From:* Wardall Clark <mailto:baseballnut570 at hotmail.com>> > *To:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net> > <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>> > *Sent:* Monday, October 22, 2007 1:39 PM> > *Subject:* [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers> >> > Can anyone provide a reason other than play balance why the RR> > rules for Soviet Arms and Training> > centers were changed with 2nd Edition War in the East?> > > > Originally an Arms Center counted as 20 divisions a training> > center for 10. Which made Training> > centers easier to relocate.> > > > Originally, arms and training centers had a rail movement> > allowance of 10, rather than 50, but not> > subject to air interdiction. This meant that no Arms centers could> > be shifted off map in a single> > week and that Neither Center could not "bug" out in a hurry once> > the Axis approached the city in which they> > were based. The decision always had to be made in advance.> > > > Lastly, because production was performed on a weekly basis> > would-be Stalins had an incentive to> > keep the centers in place until the last possible minute. This> > was especially true for training centers> > since moving the TC would place the units about to be produced> > there into limbo by delaying their training> > for 10 weeks plus the time spent entraining, moving and detraining. > >> > As a result of these rules, centers were regularly overrun in play> > of WitE because the Soviets just did not> > have enough rail capacity to get them all out and still move> > troops to critical areas.> > > > Furthermore the Stalingrad scenario set up instructions indicate> > that while 5 Training centers and 8 arms centers> > were moved off map to Siberia, 1 TC and 5 AC were lost. > > Leningrad, Krasnador and Vorenezh were evacuated successfully,> > only to never fall to the Axis. I note that Vorishilov and Rostov> > were either evacuated or fell to the Axis. My> > recollection is that Von Rumstead withdrew his units from the> > Rostov area so as to create a shorter line for the winter,> > much to Hitler's displeasure. (as to how he got there: see my> > earlier post about the aftermath of the battle of Kiev.)> >> > Suggestions: > > 1) Let's give the Soviets 60 div of capacity the 2nd week> > after Total War is declared. The first week the capacity> > should only be 30, which is not enough for all the on-map militia,> > 2) Restore the cost of moving an Arms center to 20 divisions.> > This will keep them moving well into the Fall of the 1st Campaign> > season.> > 3) Instead of treating production centers by the rules for other> > units or limiting the movement rate to 10 hexes, let's set the> > allowance to> > allow maximum relocation of 20 hexes per week and make the> > entrainment/detrainment cost for a production center to be 20> > movement points,> > thus again making the movement of a center into a 3-week minimum> > process.> > 4) Let any Center which makes it to Siberia exempt from the Arms> > center disruption (since they are already disrupted for two or more> > cycles by the weeks spent moving them.)> > 5) But no center may relocate except under conditions of Total War.> > > > One advantage here is that none of this has anything to do with> > whether or not the Axis invades early or invades late. Assuming> > that the> > Axis gets some sort of break-through by the third week, production> > centers will be overrun or cut off somewhere on the map. If> > production> > centers are lost, then the run-away to save the Army strategy> > becomes a lot less feasible.> > > > A final suggestion is that the Number of Soviet TCs starting in> > Siberia be reduced to 8 from the current 10. In 1st Edition WitE> > there were> > six off map and two in cities that were moved off map. The Soviets> > started with 18, one of which had to be devoted exclusively to air> > units.> > In WIE they get to start with 20, which allows them the luxury of> > sacrificing one at Kiev, Odessa or Minsk and then risking another at> > Stalingrad, Rostov or Vorishilov. Worse yet, they can move the> > Gorky training center to Leningrad or Vorhenz to shore up the> > defense there > > > > Eliminating those a-historical TC's will move a little more of> > placements to on map centers, which may be slightly a-historical,> > but will reduce> > the rate of placement to a more historical level that first summer> > of the campaign.> > > > *B*OB> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live> > OneCare! Try now!> > <http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> > WarInEur mailing list> > WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net> > http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > _______________________________________________> > WarInEur mailing list> > WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net> > http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur> > > > > -- > Chuck Sutherland> Technology Specialist> Gamewood, Inc.> 116 South Ridge Street> Danville, VA 24541> (434) 799-8407 x218> 
_________________________________________________________________
Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today.
http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.halisp.net/pipermail/warineur/attachments/20071023/b3a13153/attachment-0001.html