[WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

Tue Oct 23 08:14:46 EDT 2007

In the original version of WitE the centers moved a max of 10 movement 
points if memory serves, so why was this changed? Does anyony know?

Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> I am not sure there is any good reason.  Even in the new version when 
> you look at the scenario setup instruction you will see that 7 arms 
> centers are missing by 42.  The implication is that the Germans should 
> be able to catch seven in a normal game.  If I go in with paras and 
> additional units I might catch one or two on a good say, but in any 
> kind of historical game they all get away.
>  
> I have been bugging the programer for a player option that would 
> restore the first edition rules into CWIE2.  Unfortunately, I am a 
> lone voice and when I speak I am usually branded as a panzer pusher.
>  
> Maybe if more people wrote in their desire to have this as a CWIE2 
> option we could get it incorporated into the game.
>  
> Kent
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Wardall Clark <mailto:baseballnut570 at hotmail.com>
>     *To:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net
>     <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 22, 2007 1:39 PM
>     *Subject:* [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers
>
>     Can anyone provide a reason other than play balance why the RR
>     rules for Soviet Arms and Training
>     centers were changed with 2nd Edition War in the East?
>      
>     Originally an Arms Center counted as 20 divisions  a training
>     center for 10. Which made Training
>     centers easier to relocate.
>      
>     Originally, arms and training centers had a rail movement
>     allowance of 10, rather than 50, but not
>     subject to air interdiction. This meant that no Arms centers could
>     be shifted off map in a single
>     week and that Neither Center could not "bug" out in a hurry once
>     the Axis approached the city in which they
>     were based. The decision always had to be made in advance.
>      
>     Lastly, because production was performed on a weekly basis
>     would-be Stalins had an incentive to
>     keep the centers in place until the last possible minute.  This
>     was especially true for training centers
>     since moving the TC would place the units about to be produced
>     there into limbo by delaying their training
>     for 10 weeks plus the time spent entraining, moving and detraining.  
>
>     As a result of these rules, centers were regularly overrun in play
>     of WitE because the Soviets just did not
>     have enough rail capacity to get them all out and still move
>     troops to critical areas.
>      
>     Furthermore the Stalingrad scenario set up instructions indicate
>     that while 5 Training centers and 8 arms centers
>     were moved off map to Siberia, 1 TC and 5 AC were lost. 
>     Leningrad, Krasnador and Vorenezh were evacuated successfully,
>     only to never fall to the Axis. I note that Vorishilov and Rostov
>     were either evacuated or fell to the Axis.  My
>     recollection is that Von Rumstead withdrew his units from the
>     Rostov area so as to create a shorter line for the winter,
>     much to Hitler's displeasure. (as to how he got there: see my
>     earlier post about the aftermath of the battle of Kiev.)
>
>     Suggestions: 
>     1) Let's give the Soviets 60 div of capacity the 2nd week
>     after Total War is declared. The first week the capacity
>     should only be 30, which is not enough for all the on-map militia,
>     2)  Restore the cost of moving an Arms center to 20 divisions.
>     This will keep them moving well into the Fall of the 1st Campaign
>     season.
>     3) Instead of treating production centers by the rules for other
>     units or limiting the movement rate to 10 hexes, let's set the
>     allowance to
>      allow maximum relocation of 20 hexes per week and make the
>     entrainment/detrainment cost for a production center to be 20
>     movement points,
>     thus again making the movement of a center into a 3-week minimum
>     process.
>     4) Let any Center which makes it to Siberia exempt from the Arms
>     center disruption (since they are already disrupted for two or more
>     cycles by the weeks spent moving them.)
>     5) But no center may relocate except under conditions of Total War.
>      
>     One advantage here is that none of this has anything to do with
>     whether or not the Axis invades early or invades late. Assuming
>     that the
>     Axis gets some sort of break-through by the third week, production
>     centers will be overrun or cut off somewhere on the map. If
>     production
>     centers are lost, then the run-away to save the Army strategy
>     becomes a lot less feasible.
>      
>     A final suggestion is that the Number of Soviet TCs starting in
>     Siberia be reduced to 8 from the current 10. In 1st Edition WitE
>     there were
>     six off map and two in cities that were moved off map. The Soviets
>     started with 18, one of which had to be devoted exclusively to air
>     units.
>     In WIE they get to start with 20, which allows them the luxury of
>     sacrificing one at Kiev, Odessa or Minsk and then risking another at
>     Stalingrad, Rostov or Vorishilov. Worse yet, they can move the
>     Gorky training center to Leningrad or Vorhenz to shore up the
>     defense there 
>      
>     Eliminating those a-historical TC's will move a little more of
>     placements to on map centers, which may be slightly a-historical,
>     but will reduce
>     the rate of placement to a more historical level that first summer
>     of the campaign.
>      
>     *B*OB
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Chuck Sutherland
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