[WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

[Kent & Sue Haunschild]

I am not sure there is any good reason.  Even in the new version when you look at the scenario setup instruction you will see that 7 arms centers are missing by 42.  The implication is that the Germans should be able to catch seven in a normal game.  If I go in with paras and additional units I might catch one or two on a good say, but in any kind of historical game they all get away.

I have been bugging the programer for a player option that would restore the first edition rules into CWIE2.  Unfortunately, I am a lone voice and when I speak I am usually branded as a panzer pusher.

Maybe if more people wrote in their desire to have this as a CWIE2 option we could get it incorporated into the game.

Kent
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Wardall Clark 
  To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
  Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 1:39 PM
  Subject: [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers


  Can anyone provide a reason other than play balance why the RR rules for Soviet Arms and Training 
  centers were changed with 2nd Edition War in the East?
   
  Originally an Arms Center counted as 20 divisions  a training center for 10. Which made Training 
  centers easier to relocate. 
   
  Originally, arms and training centers had a rail movement allowance of 10, rather than 50, but not
  subject to air interdiction. This meant that no Arms centers could be shifted off map in a single 
  week and that Neither Center could not "bug" out in a hurry once the Axis approached the city in which they
  were based. The decision always had to be made in advance. 
   
  Lastly, because production was performed on a weekly basis would-be Stalins had an incentive to 
  keep the centers in place until the last possible minute.  This was especially true for training centers
  since moving the TC would place the units about to be produced there into limbo by delaying their training 
  for 10 weeks plus the time spent entraining, moving and detraining.  

  As a result of these rules, centers were regularly overrun in play of WitE because the Soviets just did not 
  have enough rail capacity to get them all out and still move troops to critical areas. 
   
  Furthermore the Stalingrad scenario set up instructions indicate that while 5 Training centers and 8 arms centers 
  were moved off map to Siberia, 1 TC and 5 AC were lost.  Leningrad, Krasnador and Vorenezh were evacuated successfully, 
  only to never fall to the Axis. I note that Vorishilov and Rostov were either evacuated or fell to the Axis.  My 
  recollection is that Von Rumstead withdrew his units from the Rostov area so as to create a shorter line for the winter,
  much to Hitler's displeasure. (as to how he got there: see my earlier post about the aftermath of the battle of Kiev.)

  Suggestions: 
  1) Let's give the Soviets 60 div of capacity the 2nd week after Total War is declared. The first week the capacity 
  should only be 30, which is not enough for all the on-map militia, 
  2)  Restore the cost of moving an Arms center to 20 divisions. This will keep them moving well into the Fall of the 1st Campaign 
  season. 
  3) Instead of treating production centers by the rules for other units or limiting the movement rate to 10 hexes, let's set the allowance to 
   allow maximum relocation of 20 hexes per week and make the entrainment/detrainment cost for a production center to be 20 movement points, 
  thus again making the movement of a center into a 3-week minimum process. 
  4) Let any Center which makes it to Siberia exempt from the Arms center disruption (since they are already disrupted for two or more 
  cycles by the weeks spent moving them.) 
  5) But no center may relocate except under conditions of Total War. 
   
  One advantage here is that none of this has anything to do with whether or not the Axis invades early or invades late. Assuming that the 
  Axis gets some sort of break-through by the third week, production centers will be overrun or cut off somewhere on the map. If production 
  centers are lost, then the run-away to save the Army strategy becomes a lot less feasible. 
   
  A final suggestion is that the Number of Soviet TCs starting in Siberia be reduced to 8 from the current 10. In 1st Edition WitE there were 
  six off map and two in cities that were moved off map. The Soviets started with 18, one of which had to be devoted exclusively to air units.
  In WIE they get to start with 20, which allows them the luxury of sacrificing one at Kiev, Odessa or Minsk and then risking another at 
  Stalingrad, Rostov or Vorishilov. Worse yet, they can move the Gorky training center to Leningrad or Vorhenz to shore up the defense there 
   
  Eliminating those a-historical TC's will move a little more of placements to on map centers, which may be slightly a-historical, but will reduce 
  the rate of placement to a more historical level that first summer of the campaign. 
   
  BOB 
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