[WarInEur] RE: WarInEur Digest, Vol 39, Issue 11

Tue Oct 9 13:39:14 EDT 2007

The responses to Chuck and I's discussion of strategy and tactics was so great that 
I cannot tell which of us is being nailed into a coffin in ziggy's post. 

There are 4 basic rules situations.  (1) neither attrition nor Fog of War.  In this case
the tactics I described will outmanuever the super fluid Soviets so that they must either 
regularly move Training centers or see them rendered inoperable due to cut rail connections.  They can chose to hold PC centers or die out of supply two weeks later. 
The Soviet player must be careful not to lose the cities too fast (due to the Collapse Rule)

(2) Only FOG of War.  In this case Soviets can use both RUN AWAY strategy and Hedge Hogging because the Attackers don't know the details of the Soviet deployments. A great
deal of the initial border forces should escape backward to the initial limits of German supply or form fortified enclaves that contest suppply. 

(3)  Only Attrition.  This can be especially dangerous for the Soviets if any big hole developes since forces reaching the hole will not be at full strength and newly produced 
unts may not be up to combat needs in time.  The good news is that if the Axis follows 
my tactics for (1) they will wear themselves to the bone even before they run out of 
supply without actually overrunning all that many stray Soviets.  In the long run, the Soviets are possibly better off by contesting the frontier of prewar USSR as this exhausts the Wermacht before it ever nears that infamous defense line where no supply is possible. The Axis' Chance to Win in 1942  would be much smaller that way. 

(4) Attrition and FOG of War.  I don't understand the mechanics of how units are attrited
but my initial play test indicated that unless the Axis has Airbourne or AMP capacity, 
the Soviets are going to be in very good shape come week 9 (I had two fallback lines
of 0-3-0 mostly completed by the end of turn 5.)    The best german tactic 
will probably be to routinely remass and hide troop concentrations to as to work around 
whereever the Soviets are throwing up a fixed defense.  A southern thrust  is thus
made a great deal more plausible.   Imagine the soviet defenders of Kiev massing for a 
fight that never happens and instead being taken from behind by Units diverted away
from Moscow. 

The first three weeks of the Russian Campaign under WIE rules depend in large part 
on the set ups the two sides are using, which in urn depend on the OOBs and setup rules  

 I cut my teeth with 1st Edition WitE.  The Germans get a free set constrained by the boundaries of their three Army groups but may use their movement phase to redeploy if they wish. The soviets lack suffiient at the front forces to prevent at least one massive break out. The best they may do is channel the Axis Mechanized exploitation.  They are hampered in this by the fact that for the first two weeks they are using minor ZOC  rules (except for Overruns.)

In subsequent editions the Soviet OOB for 1/7/41 was slightly expanded. If one sets up carefully enough there are zero!!! Overrunns, meaning that the second LOT starts the Soviet Turn intact!!  This costs the Axis a full week relative to the Soviet Militia and those 12 4-4s which are on-line.  Unfortunately it makes for guarenteed loss of 100 units by the 0/8/41 production phase. Since I am unconvinced that the Germans would ever fail to kill 25/week during their in suppy first month, I don't regard this as a true liability. 

If the German OOB is expanded to include ATPs and AMPHs then my "perfect set up fails to 
adequately protect Riga and even Odessa since I prefer to place Training centers where they either protect rail access or can more easily flee (rules on this one keep shifting)
However, since they cannot possible be supplyied, no para may drop on a back line unit 
unless he can win the fight without aid. 

I am guessing here, but I would say that the remarkable German achievements routinely cited ame when the Soviets had a fixed set up and the Axis had a free set up. If you click WIE scenario 1941 for CWIE-2 the Germans are set up differently from the Germans
in the WitE 1941 scenario.  In one AG South's 6-5s are lined up with Odessa and in the other they are in Poland.  In both cases the setups are given for both sides.  What can be accomplished in those opening weeks by either side is limited by one's willingness to spend hours with the Editor shifting units around to prefered locations.  

PLEA TO THE PROGRAMER:  the editor  should default to the entire tack (as it does during movement in the 1939 sample Module.)  I know the rules say that each unit was supposed to finish its movement before another unit moves BUT let's be real, the number of clicks is way out of hand for the Russian campaign.   Also, when editing the computer should have recyled itself to recieve a new hex's unit as soon as the previoius stack is repositioned rather than continuing to move the old unit. Again way too many total clicks to get the job done.

NOTE for Terry shaw: I remember that the RR units could convert track during mud, in 
WitE first edition.  There was an absolute prohibition on repair during snow. 
In second edition, whether the RR can advance is a matter of rule interpretation. During 
MUD they have a movement rate of 1 and the rules normally allow any unit to always move 
1 hex except when going from zoc to ZOC.  In SNOW there was no problem unless RRs count as mechanized or motorized units. 
This was an obvious oversight and so the original prohibition was restored via clarifications about the Weather zones and types of track.  Unfortunately, the new prohibition includes MUD turns, which deprived the AXIS of 10 hexes of rails for 1942. Eventually, Table 6.69 was created for DG BWIE, edition 4. Many who never got the clarification or preferred the original 2nd edition rules have been griping about this much reduced utility of RR units in CWIE ever since. 

NOTE for Chuck Sutherland:  I blew the detail. The ZOC of the back line 1-4 prevents Overrun by an OOS unit.  However, My10-8 commanders use Spare Movement points to 
get back into Supply whenever possible so your proposed defense line needs to be three
hexes further out of Axis supply than you orginally may have planned.  
   Also the line you describe should have no gaps for precombat pentrations. If it is solid then the Multiple hex combat Kent points out would take place.  If it has gaps then I will target the 2nd line unit with combat along . Take my loss and move into the hex. In the Mech phase I overrun other  frontline unitls no longer protected, which may now make the back line vulnerable.  Furthermore, If Greg gets the simultaneous Overrun procedure working then the ZOC of side by side units would no longer protect both from overruns 

As I work hard to get MSUs in front of the Rail Heads by the 3rd Mech Phase, Your temporary line is going to need to be mighty deep into Russia mighty early in the game. Such a Stategy of limiting German Casualties is probably not the best idea given the new attrition option , but 
I must say that FOG of War makes it especially attractive in forested areas.  

BOB 

 TERRY Wrote
> Someone will not doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original WitE allow> RR units to repair in mud ? I'm not sure about the early WiE though. This made> quite a difference to the German ability to hold OOS in mud. It more than made> up for the lack of MS units.> > John's description of a standard attack in the East is entirely accurate. It does get> rather predictable if both players are experienced. The problem is caused by the> fact that the Russians can just count hexes to see where the Germans run out of > supply. (and that the Germans supply lines don't stretch far enough to force a fight> in front of Moscow)> I proposed a change that gave the Germans an option to advance a single RR unit> by one hex during each strategic cycle. (on a dice roll 1=AGN; 2,3 = AGC; 4,5,6> = AGS). I haven't had chance to try this out yet, but it would at least give some> uncertainty to how far the German supply will reach. The average of 2 extra> hexes forwards would mean a bit of a scrap in front of Moscow in 1941.> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> John wrote:> I beg to differ. Riga and Odessa routinely fall to my German attack in> CWIEII by the second week (in fact, Riga often falls on the first turn to an> airborne attack which is the riskiest attack I make. In fact, the arms> centers/training centers in Odessa, Kiev and Minsk are also taken in the> usual course of events by turn 3 or 4. Every Soviet unit on the front and> 90%+ within 10 hexes of the front from the Baltic to Odessa dies. In short> the soviet forces as they exist on turn one of the battle are pretty much> wiped out. Shock of war hits on turn one or at most two due to the losses on> the front. > > And with all of that, the majority of times the Soviets win. This includes> when I play the dual play option (where two simultaneous games are going> with each side playing the soviets in one game and the Germans in the> other). > > The reason the Soviets win? They run away. They get to a point just beyond> the German supply lines. Or more accurately, the resurgent soviet forces> establish a new line just past German supply since there really is no one> left to run away. Things can get pretty hairy for the Soviets, but General> Winter arrives in time and the soviets rebuild during the winter and thus> are able to fend off the German '42 attacks well enough to fight on to '43> and its all down hill from that point on.> > Now maybe CWIE I is different enough from the WiTE, but it is far away from> reality for the absolutist victory conditions you present.> > -------------- next part --------------> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> URL: http://mailman.halisp.net/pipermail/warineur/attachments/20071009/52af0e6e/attachment-0001.html> > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 13:36:58 +0100> From: sgminfo sgminfo at aol.com> > The attrition option tends to add one more nail in the coffin of the > mentioned tactics.> > Units tasked under heavy repetitive movement orders tend to pile up > attrition, wear and tear, so the classical Soviet tactic of cut and run > is not quite so obviously beneficial.> > Units fleeing in front of the Germans are apt to reach the new MLR > before Moscow in nearly as bad a state as the pursuing Germans.> > This is a feature that I am grappling with at the moment. The germans > are rapidly closing the moscow outskirts, and although pretty weak, are > faced with exhausted retreating units, and green, newly formed reserves, > in no state to trash the german drive.> > This holds every prospect of enabling the Germans to push out the boat > and try for the city...and other key areas, not being completely > crippled as they are oos in the standard games. Time will tell what > effect this has on the historical feel of the game, but it does lead to > an interesting new dimension.
> The attrition option tends to add one more nail in the coffin of the mentioned tactics.> Units tasked under heavy repetitive movement orders tend to pile up attrition, wear and tear, so the classical Soviet tactic of cut and run is not quite so obviously beneficial.> Units fleeing in front of the Germans are apt to reach the new MLR before Moscow in nearly as bad a state as the pursuing Germans.> This is a feature that I am grappling with at the moment. The germans are rapidly closing the moscow outskirts, and although pretty weak, are faced with exhausted retreating units, and green, newly formed reserves, in no state to trash the german drive.> This holds every prospect of enabling the Germans to push out the boat and try for the city...and other key areas, not being completely crippled as they are oos in the standard games. Time will tell what effect this has on the historical feel of the game, but it does lead to an interesting new dimension.> -|steve|-> Terry Shaw wrote:> Someone will not doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original WitE allow> RR units to repair in mud ?  I'm not sure about the early WiE though. > This made> quite a difference to the German ability to hold OOS in mud. > It more than made> up for the lack of MS units.>  > John's description of a standard attack in the East is entirely accurate.  It does get> rather predictable if both players are experienced. > The problem is caused by the> fact that the Russians can just count hexes to see where the Germans run out of> supply. > (and that the Germans supply lines don't stretch far enough to force a fight> in front of Moscow)> I proposed a change that gave the Germans an option to advance a single RR unit> by one hex during each strategic cycle.  (on a dice roll 1=AGN; 2,3 = AGC; 4,5,6> = AGS).  I haven't had chance to try this out yet, but it would at least give some> uncertainty to how far the German supply will reach.  The average of 2 extra> hexes forwards would mean a bit of a scrap in front of Moscow in 1941.>  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> John wrote:> I beg to differ. Riga and Odessa routinely fall to my German attack in> CWIEII by the second week (in fact, Riga often falls on the first turn to an> airborne attack which is the riskiest attack I make. In fact, the arms> centers/training centers in Odessa, Kiev and Minsk are also taken in the> usual course of events by turn 3 or 4. Every Soviet unit on the front and> 90%+ within 10 hexes of the front from the Baltic to Odessa dies. In short> the soviet forces as they exist on turn one of the battle are pretty much> wiped out. Shock of war hits on turn one or at most two due to the losses on> the front.> And with all of that, the majority of times the Soviets win. This includes> when I play the dual play option (where two simultaneous games are going> with each side playing the soviets in one game and the Germans in the> other).> The reason the Soviets win? They run away. They get to a point just beyond> the German supply lines. Or more accurately, the resurgent soviet forces> establish a new line just past German supply since there really is no one> left to run away. Things can get pretty hairy for the Soviets, but General> Winter arrives in time and the soviets rebuild during the winter and thus> are able to fend off the German '42 attacks well enough to fight on to '43> and its all down hill from that point on.> Now maybe CWIE I is different enough from the WiTE, but it is far away from> reality for the absolutist victory conditions you present. 
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