{Spam?} Re: [WarInEur] RE: chucks proposed defensive tactics

[sgminfo]

The attrition option tends to add one more nail in the coffin of the 
mentioned tactics.

Units tasked under heavy repetitive movement orders tend to pile up 
attrition, wear and tear, so the classical Soviet tactic of cut and run 
is not quite so obviously beneficial.

Units fleeing in front of the Germans are apt to reach the new MLR 
before Moscow in nearly as bad a state as the pursuing Germans.

This is a feature that I am grappling with at the moment. The germans 
are rapidly closing the moscow outskirts, and although pretty weak, are 
faced with exhausted retreating units, and green, newly formed reserves, 
in no state to trash the german drive.

This holds every prospect of enabling the Germans to push out the boat 
and try for the city...and other key areas, not being completely 
crippled as they are oos in the standard games. Time will tell what 
effect this has on the historical feel of the game, but it does lead to 
an interesting new dimension.

-|steve|-

Terry Shaw wrote:
> Someone will not doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 
> original WitE allow
> RR units to repair in mud ?  I'm not sure about the early WiE though.  
> This made
> quite a difference to the German ability to hold OOS in mud.  It more 
> than made
> up for the lack of MS units.
>  
> John's description of a standard attack in the East is entirely 
> accurate.  It does get
> rather predictable if both players are experienced.  The problem is 
> caused by the
> fact that the Russians can just count hexes to see where the Germans 
> run out of
> supply.  (and that the Germans supply lines don't stretch far enough 
> to force a fight
> in front of Moscow)
> I proposed a change that gave the Germans an option to advance a 
> single RR unit
> by one hex during each strategic cycle.  (on a dice roll 1=AGN; 2,3 = 
> AGC; 4,5,6
> = AGS).  I haven't had chance to try this out yet, but it would at 
> least give some
> uncertainty to how far the German supply will reach.  The average of 2 
> extra
> hexes forwards would mean a bit of a scrap in front of Moscow in 1941.
>  
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John wrote:
> I beg to differ. Riga and Odessa routinely fall to my German attack in
> CWIEII by the second week (in fact, Riga often falls on the first turn 
> to an
> airborne attack which is the riskiest attack I make. In fact, the arms
> centers/training centers in Odessa, Kiev and Minsk are also taken in the
> usual course of events by turn 3 or 4. Every Soviet unit on the front and
> 90%+ within 10 hexes of the front from the Baltic to Odessa dies. In short
> the soviet forces as they exist on turn one of the battle are pretty much
> wiped out. Shock of war hits on turn one or at most two due to the 
> losses on
> the front.
>
> And with all of that, the majority of times the Soviets win. This includes
> when I play the dual play option (where two simultaneous games are going
> with each side playing the soviets in one game and the Germans in the
> other).
>
> The reason the Soviets win? They run away. They get to a point just beyond
> the German supply lines. Or more accurately, the resurgent soviet forces
> establish a new line just past German supply since there really is no one
> left to run away. Things can get pretty hairy for the Soviets, but General
> Winter arrives in time and the soviets rebuild during the winter and thus
> are able to fend off the German '42 attacks well enough to fight on to '43
> and its all down hill from that point on.
>
> Now maybe CWIE I is different enough from the WiTE, but it is far away 
> from
> reality for the absolutist victory conditions you present.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net
> http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur
>   

-------------- next part --------------
The attrition option tends to add one more nail in the coffin of the mentioned tactics.
Units tasked under heavy repetitive movement orders tend to pile up attrition, wear and tear, so the classical Soviet tactic of cut and run is not quite so obviously beneficial.
Units fleeing in front of the Germans are apt to reach the new MLR before Moscow in nearly as bad a state as the pursuing Germans.
This is a feature that I am grappling with at the moment. The germans are rapidly closing the moscow outskirts, and although pretty weak, are faced with exhausted retreating units, and green, newly formed reserves, in no state to trash the german drive.
This holds every prospect of enabling the Germans to push out the boat and try for the city...and other key areas, not being completely crippled as they are oos in the standard games. Time will tell what effect this has on the historical feel of the game, but it does lead to an interesting new dimension.
-|steve|-
Terry Shaw wrote:
Someone will not doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the original WitE allow
RR units to repair in mud ?  I'm not sure about the early WiE though. 
This made
quite a difference to the German ability to hold OOS in mud. 
It more than made
up for the lack of MS units.
 
John's description of a standard attack in the East is entirely accurate.  It does get
rather predictable if both players are experienced. 
The problem is caused by the
fact that the Russians can just count hexes to see where the Germans run out of
supply. 
(and that the Germans supply lines don't stretch far enough to force a fight
in front of Moscow)
I proposed a change that gave the Germans an option to advance a single RR unit
by one hex during each strategic cycle.  (on a dice roll 1=AGN; 2,3 = AGC; 4,5,6
= AGS).  I haven't had chance to try this out yet, but it would at least give some
uncertainty to how far the German supply will reach.  The average of 2 extra
hexes forwards would mean a bit of a scrap in front of Moscow in 1941.
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John wrote:
I beg to differ. Riga and Odessa routinely fall to my German attack in
CWIEII by the second week (in fact, Riga often falls on the first turn to an
airborne attack which is the riskiest attack I make. In fact, the arms
centers/training centers in Odessa, Kiev and Minsk are also taken in the
usual course of events by turn 3 or 4. Every Soviet unit on the front and
90%+ within 10 hexes of the front from the Baltic to Odessa dies. In short
the soviet forces as they exist on turn one of the battle are pretty much
wiped out. Shock of war hits on turn one or at most two due to the losses on
the front.
And with all of that, the majority of times the Soviets win. This includes
when I play the dual play option (where two simultaneous games are going
with each side playing the soviets in one game and the Germans in the
other).
The reason the Soviets win? They run away. They get to a point just beyond
the German supply lines. Or more accurately, the resurgent soviet forces
establish a new line just past German supply since there really is no one
left to run away. Things can get pretty hairy for the Soviets, but General
Winter arrives in time and the soviets rebuild during the winter and thus
are able to fend off the German '42 attacks well enough to fight on to '43
and its all down hill from that point on.
Now maybe CWIE I is different enough from the WiTE, but it is far away from
reality for the absolutist victory conditions you present.
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