[WarInEur] strategic surprise rule - more lipstick for the piggy! ;)

[Chuck Sutherland]

Yes but taking small baby steps to towards a mobile combat system means 
that you have to rebalance and re playtest it anyway, so you are already 
doing the extra work but not gaining the goal of showing off the 
blitzkrieg style of combat. We we will take 20 small steps over the 
course of what 20 years maybe and end up in the same place.

Lets just make the quantum leap and get on with it! That way we are 
talking about maybe 3-5 years to test the options.

The subroutines are already there, the combat system just simply needs 
to be able to be turned on when the overrun code is triggered, a flag 
setting combat during movement on, the costs of overruns is already 
recorded in the code at 2 mp. The Russian production system is already 
coded, all that is needed is to make it work during the weekly turns, 
again a flag to turn it on, the only change there might be moving from a 
cycle count to a turn count for entry of units.

After that its a matter of tuning the production to give increased 1-4 
and 1-3 production while turning down the 4-4s to make them stay level 
with that is currently being produced.

Even if the AEX could be turned off by using a flag,

If you move the Minsk training center to Lenningrad, the combat and 
movement system should allow the Germans to reach and take Minsk on the 
first turn of the war. If you use the historical 1940 scenario you 
should be able to take france out in 6 weeks, if you can't then you have 
not reached the proper mobility levels. I think the counter mix will 
allow it without any renumbering of counter strengths.

If I knew how to use cyberboard and thought there was an outside chance 
that we could actually get to this level of change I would playtest the 
hell out of the system proposals.

sgminfo wrote:
> The caveat is, as always, change only one thing at a time as you 
> experiment, moving the goal posts in 3 dimensions simultaneously is 
> apt to give unexpected results as players find new ways to exploit 
> your new environment to the limits. Moving many variables tends to 
> leave you with a new game and a heap load of playtesting to sort out 
> the unexpected.
>
> ..as the beta test group have found...
>
>
> -|steve|-
>
> Chuck Sutherland wrote:
>> Oh its actually pretty easy, just allow the Russians to build units 
>> each turn instead of every four turns and lower the number of units 
>> built except for 1-3 and 1-4s to 1. Historically during the active 
>> campaign the Russians lost between 3.5 and 4 million men in 41. Based 
>> on the starting OOB and the militia that is added, you have to be 
>> able to produce about 320-350 1-4 to match the manpower on the 
>> eastern front. So in about 4 production cycles you need about 20 
>> training centers pushing out 1-4s if you were using the normal 
>> production rules.
>>
>> Thus my conclusion is the Russian 1-4 cannon fodder production is way 
>> down, the reason is to compensate for the lack of mobility and the 
>> AEX OOS supply effects.
>>
>> Every suggestion that has been talked about, is a bandage of sorts 
>> for the flaw in the combat system and the lack of mobile combat that 
>> is partially made up by parachute units. So the current combat system 
>> has the Paras as the most important ground unit for taking territory 
>> instead of armor, because armor can be stopped by 3 points worth of 
>> defenders or less if there is a river involved!
>>
>> So we can apply a small bandage here and there like was done 
>> originally aka lower then historical Russian production, over modeled 
>> parachute effects and continue to past and plaster adding additional 
>> lipstick to the pig in the hopes that something pretty will finally 
>> show up, or you can bite the bullet and take apart the combat system 
>> and restructure it so that is models historical results.
>>
>> Right now even with surprise, you can't model France 1940, you can't 
>> model Russia 1941 on, and because France is broken you can't model 
>> North Africa because Sealion is not as big a threat as it would be in 
>> middle of summer 1940.
>>
>> Unless you can drop France in six weeks and take Minsk on turn one of 
>> Barbarossa you have not modeled the historical abilities of the 
>> German army in early WWII! Does the optional rule allow this to take 
>> place????
>>
>>
>>
>> sgminfo wrote:
>>> Given that Chuck points out the 'hazards in terms of implementation, 
>>> i.e. additional work on ob and counter sets, nothing need be said on 
>>> that poont...but a consideration that might be useful in the 
>>> implementation of such a rule.
>>>
>>> Painting the extreme case,
>>>
>>> the penetration and exploitation of a line, without the defender 
>>> being able to physically react because of the strictures of the game 
>>> turn (alternate phase sequencing)...one might consider reaction 
>>> movement, or a variation thereto.
>>>
>>> i.e. The Arnhem situation, where airborne land and XXX corps  double 
>>> match throught the German line, and past a SS Panzer division, 
>>> through Zocs and into a link up...
>>> Instead of the German division being totally passive, and the zoc 
>>> being totally fluid, one might have the ability to enmesh someone in 
>>> a zoc, such that they have to stop...
>>>
>>> This might thereby allow well found and rested reserves to really 
>>> act as a 'firebrigade ' style unit as operational reserves tend to 
>>> do...
>>>
>>> There might be a trigger die roll, based on the strength (attrition) 
>>> and training (crt number) of the units in reserve, that modify the 
>>> capabilities...so an Italian 1-4 on crt 4 might not have reaction 
>>> abilities, or reaction abilities are resytricted to mechanised and 
>>> or elite units...
>>>
>>> But it is an idea to think about...
>>>
>>> The key element is allowing the defender not to be so unhinged 
>>> (given a moderately balanced situation), that he is in defeat before 
>>> he can roll with the blow and punch back...
>>>
>>>
>>> -|steve|-
>>>
>>> Don Lazov wrote:
>>>> Chuck,
>>>>  
>>>> Are your combat on the move ideas similar to OCS during movement 
>>>> overruns?
>>>>  
>>>> For those not in the know, in OCS during your movement phase (or 
>>>> the enemy's reaction movement phase) you may overrun units, in this 
>>>> sense overrun is just like combat but you do it in the movement 
>>>> phase by expending MP to overrun a hex, you may not even take the 
>>>> hex, but cause losses (to both your self and his forces).
>>>>  
>>>> Again in OCS the only units that have a ZOC are units in Combat mode.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> Don Lazov
>>>> ~Best Regards
>>>>  
>>>
>>
>>
>


-- 
Chuck Sutherland
Technology Specialist
Gamewood, Inc.
116 South Ridge Street
Danville, VA 24541
(434) 799-8407 x218