[WarInEur] strategic surprise rule - more lipstick for the piggy!
; )
Chuck Sutherland
csutherland at gamewoodinc.com
Mon Nov 12 19:23:25 EST 2007
And see the root cause that makes people want to change one small item
after another! The root cause is the combat system lacks mobility! Until
it is addressed, small changes will do very little to effect it. One
turn of mobility every so often, when it does not allow combat between
the movement phases is going to gain only limited ground against any
defender who has any reserves at all. You may be able to suddenly shift
a long distance to gain one hex, but except for running over a minor
nation, you are not going to get very far because a double or triple
line will stop you.
I know I am being a naggy old woman, but geez people see the real
problem and stop dancing around it looking for half measures to fix it,
if its broken then fix it completely, if not then leave it along as is
and forget options.
srm wrote:
> yep, forget the lipstick, fellas. that pig won't fly.
>
> see the game as what it is: a game,an abstraction
> with many flaws, just like chess. play it. leave WWII
> simulation for the CIA and NSA and their
> supercomputers and baseball fans.
>
> Sergio
>
> --- Chuck Sutherland <csutherland at gamewoodinc.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Oh its actually pretty easy, just allow the Russians
>> to build units each
>> turn instead of every four turns and lower the
>> number of units built
>> except for 1-3 and 1-4s to 1. Historically during
>> the active campaign
>> the Russians lost between 3.5 and 4 million men in
>> 41. Based on the
>> starting OOB and the militia that is added, you have
>> to be able to
>> produce about 320-350 1-4 to match the manpower on
>> the eastern front. So
>> in about 4 production cycles you need about 20
>> training centers pushing
>> out 1-4s if you were using the normal production
>> rules.
>>
>> Thus my conclusion is the Russian 1-4 cannon fodder
>> production is way
>> down, the reason is to compensate for the lack of
>> mobility and the AEX
>> OOS supply effects.
>>
>> Every suggestion that has been talked about, is a
>> bandage of sorts for
>> the flaw in the combat system and the lack of mobile
>> combat that is
>> partially made up by parachute units. So the current
>> combat system has
>> the Paras as the most important ground unit for
>> taking territory instead
>> of armor, because armor can be stopped by 3 points
>> worth of defenders or
>> less if there is a river involved!
>>
>> So we can apply a small bandage here and there like
>> was done originally
>> aka lower then historical Russian production, over
>> modeled parachute
>> effects and continue to past and plaster adding
>> additional lipstick to
>> the pig in the hopes that something pretty will
>> finally show up, or you
>> can bite the bullet and take apart the combat system
>> and restructure it
>> so that is models historical results.
>>
>> Right now even with surprise, you can't model France
>> 1940, you can't
>> model Russia 1941 on, and because France is broken
>> you can't model North
>> Africa because Sealion is not as big a threat as it
>> would be in middle
>> of summer 1940.
>>
>> Unless you can drop France in six weeks and take
>> Minsk on turn one of
>> Barbarossa you have not modeled the historical
>> abilities of the German
>> army in early WWII! Does the optional rule allow
>> this to take place????
>>
>>
>>
>> sgminfo wrote:
>>
>>> Given that Chuck points out the 'hazards in terms
>>>
>> of implementation,
>>
>>> i.e. additional work on ob and counter sets,
>>>
>> nothing need be said on
>>
>>> that poont...but a consideration that might be
>>>
>> useful in the
>>
>>> implementation of such a rule.
>>>
>>> Painting the extreme case,
>>>
>>> the penetration and exploitation of a line,
>>>
>> without the defender being
>>
>>> able to physically react because of the strictures
>>>
>> of the game turn
>>
>>> (alternate phase sequencing)...one might consider
>>>
>> reaction movement,
>>
>>> or a variation thereto.
>>>
>>> i.e. The Arnhem situation, where airborne land and
>>>
>> XXX corps double
>>
>>> match throught the German line, and past a SS
>>>
>> Panzer division, through
>>
>>> Zocs and into a link up...
>>> Instead of the German division being totally
>>>
>> passive, and the zoc
>>
>>> being totally fluid, one might have the ability to
>>>
>> enmesh someone in a
>>
>>> zoc, such that they have to stop...
>>>
>>> This might thereby allow well found and rested
>>>
>> reserves to really act
>>
>>> as a 'firebrigade ' style unit as operational
>>>
>> reserves tend to do...
>>
>>> There might be a trigger die roll, based on the
>>>
>> strength (attrition)
>>
>>> and training (crt number) of the units in reserve,
>>>
>> that modify the
>>
>>> capabilities...so an Italian 1-4 on crt 4 might
>>>
>> not have reaction
>>
>>> abilities, or reaction abilities are resytricted
>>>
>> to mechanised and or
>>
>>> elite units...
>>>
>>> But it is an idea to think about...
>>>
>>> The key element is allowing the defender not to be
>>>
>> so unhinged (given
>>
>>> a moderately balanced situation), that he is in
>>>
>> defeat before he can
>>
>>> roll with the blow and punch back...
>>>
>>>
>>> -|steve|-
>>>
>>> Don Lazov wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chuck,
>>>>
>>>> Are your combat on the move ideas similar to OCS
>>>>
>> during movement
>>
>>>> overruns?
>>>>
>>>> For those not in the know, in OCS during your
>>>>
>> movement phase (or the
>>
>>>> enemy's reaction movement phase) you may overrun
>>>>
>> units, in this sense
>>
>>>> overrun is just like combat but you do it in the
>>>>
>> movement phase by
>>
>>>> expending MP to overrun a hex, you may not even
>>>>
>> take the hex, but
>>
>>>> cause losses (to both your self and his forces).
>>>>
>>>> Again in OCS the only units that have a ZOC are
>>>>
>> units in Combat mode.
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Don Lazov
>>>> ~Best Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Chuck Sutherland
>> Technology Specialist
>> Gamewood, Inc.
>> 116 South Ridge Street
>> Danville, VA 24541
>> (434) 799-8407 x218
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WarInEur mailing list
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>>
>>
>
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--
Chuck Sutherland
Technology Specialist
Gamewood, Inc.
116 South Ridge Street
Danville, VA 24541
(434) 799-8407 x218
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