[WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers
Chuck Sutherland
csutherland at gamewoodinc.com
Fri Nov 9 08:22:14 EST 2007
Been out sick so I am catching up on the latest threads. Yes the arms
centers should be catchable, but it will make the air issues that are
VERY BROKEN even worse if the arms centers are fixed so they are
destroyed. With the Germans ability to mass their air in the east and
keep the russian air down till late 43 the russians need every arm
center they can get since they have to fight more then the historical air.
Fix the arms centers but also give the Russians more ability to replace
dead air units by cutting those costs in half as part of that option.
Noel & Pamela wrote:
> I totally agree. It should be available as an option. Sign me up for
> the campaign!
>
>
>
> regards,
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
> [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] *On Behalf Of *Kent &
> Sue Haunschild
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:25 AM
> *To:* Wardall Clark; warineur at mailman.halisp.net
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers
>
> I am not sure there is any good reason. Even in the new version
> when you look at the scenario setup instruction you will see that
> 7 arms centers are missing by 42. The implication is that the
> Germans should be able to catch seven in a normal game. If I go
> in with paras and additional units I might catch one or two on a
> good say, but in any kind of historical game they all get away.
>
> I have been bugging the programer for a player option that would
> restore the first edition rules into CWIE2. Unfortunately, I am a
> lone voice and when I speak I am usually branded as a panzer pusher.
>
> Maybe if more people wrote in their desire to have this as a CWIE2
> option we could get it incorporated into the game.
>
> Kent
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Wardall Clark <mailto:baseballnut570 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net
> <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 22, 2007 1:39 PM
> *Subject:* [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers
>
> Can anyone provide a reason other than play balance why the RR
> rules for Soviet Arms and Training
> centers were changed with 2nd Edition War in the East?
>
> Originally an Arms Center counted as 20 divisions a training
> center for 10. Which made Training
> centers easier to relocate.
>
> Originally, arms and training centers had a rail movement
> allowance of 10, rather than 50, but not
> subject to air interdiction. This meant that no Arms centers
> could be shifted off map in a single
> week and that Neither Center could not "bug" out in a hurry
> once the Axis approached the city in which they
> were based. The decision always had to be made in advance.
>
> Lastly, because production was performed on a weekly basis
> would-be Stalins had an incentive to
> keep the centers in place until the last possible minute.
> This was especially true for training centers
> since moving the TC would place the units about to be produced
> there into limbo by delaying their training
> for 10 weeks plus the time spent entraining, moving and
> detraining.
>
> As a result of these rules, centers were regularly overrun in
> play of WitE because the Soviets just did not
> have enough rail capacity to get them all out and still move
> troops to critical areas.
>
> Furthermore the Stalingrad scenario set up instructions
> indicate that while 5 Training centers and 8 arms centers
> were moved off map to Siberia, 1 TC and 5 AC were lost.
> Leningrad, Krasnador and Vorenezh were evacuated successfully,
> only to never fall to the Axis. I note that Vorishilov and
> Rostov were either evacuated or fell to the Axis. My
> recollection is that Von Rumstead withdrew his units from the
> Rostov area so as to create a shorter line for the winter,
> much to Hitler's displeasure. (as to how he got there: see my
> earlier post about the aftermath of the battle of Kiev.)
>
> Suggestions:
> 1) Let's give the Soviets 60 div of capacity the 2nd week
> after Total War is declared. The first week the capacity
> should only be 30, which is not enough for all the on-map
> militia,
> 2) Restore the cost of moving an Arms center to 20 divisions.
> This will keep them moving well into the Fall of the 1st Campaign
> season.
> 3) Instead of treating production centers by the rules for
> other units or limiting the movement rate to 10 hexes, let's
> set the allowance to
> allow maximum relocation of 20 hexes per week and make the
> entrainment/detrainment cost for a production center to be 20
> movement points,
> thus again making the movement of a center into a 3-week
> minimum process.
> 4) Let any Center which makes it to Siberia exempt from the
> Arms center disruption (since they are already disrupted for
> two or more
> cycles by the weeks spent moving them.)
> 5) But no center may relocate except under conditions of Total
> War.
>
> One advantage here is that none of this has anything to do
> with whether or not the Axis invades early or invades late.
> Assuming that the
> Axis gets some sort of break-through by the third week,
> production centers will be overrun or cut off somewhere on the
> map. If production
> centers are lost, then the run-away to save the Army strategy
> becomes a lot less feasible.
>
> A final suggestion is that the Number of Soviet TCs starting
> in Siberia be reduced to 8 from the current 10. In 1st Edition
> WitE there were
> six off map and two in cities that were moved off map. The
> Soviets started with 18, one of which had to be devoted
> exclusively to air units.
> In WIE they get to start with 20, which allows them the luxury
> of sacrificing one at Kiev, Odessa or Minsk and then risking
> another at
> Stalingrad, Rostov or Vorishilov. Worse yet, they can move the
> Gorky training center to Leningrad or Vorhenz to shore up the
> defense there
>
> Eliminating those a-historical TC's will move a little more of
> placements to on map centers, which may be slightly
> a-historical, but will reduce
> the rate of placement to a more historical level that first
> summer of the campaign.
>
> *B*OB
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--
Chuck Sutherland
Technology Specialist
Gamewood, Inc.
116 South Ridge Street
Danville, VA 24541
(434) 799-8407 x218
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