[WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

Wed Nov 7 07:33:46 EST 2007

I totally agree.  It should be available as an option.  Sign me up for the
campaign!

regards,
Noel

-----Original Message-----
From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
[mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Kent & Sue
Haunschild
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:25 AM
To: Wardall Clark; warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

I am not sure there is any good reason.  Even in the new version when you
look at the scenario setup instruction you will see that 7 arms centers are
missing by 42.  The implication is that the Germans should be able to catch
seven in a normal game.  If I go in with paras and additional units I might
catch one or two on a good say, but in any kind of historical game they all
get away.

I have been bugging the programer for a player option that would restore the
first edition rules into CWIE2.  Unfortunately, I am a lone voice and when I
speak I am usually branded as a panzer pusher.

Maybe if more people wrote in their desire to have this as a CWIE2 option we
could get it incorporated into the game.

Kent

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Wardall Clark <mailto:baseballnut570 at hotmail.com>  
To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 1:39 PM
Subject: [WarInEur] RE: Relocation of Arms and Training centers

Can anyone provide a reason other than play balance why the RR rules for
Soviet Arms and Training 
centers were changed with 2nd Edition War in the East?

Originally an Arms Center counted as 20 divisions  a training center for 10.
Which made Training 
centers easier to relocate. 

Originally, arms and training centers had a rail movement allowance of 10,
rather than 50, but not
subject to air interdiction. This meant that no Arms centers could be
shifted off map in a single 
week and that Neither Center could not "bug" out in a hurry once the Axis
approached the city in which they
were based. The decision always had to be made in advance. 

Lastly, because production was performed on a weekly basis would-be Stalins
had an incentive to 
keep the centers in place until the last possible minute.  This was
especially true for training centers
since moving the TC would place the units about to be produced there into
limbo by delaying their training 
for 10 weeks plus the time spent entraining, moving and detraining.  

As a result of these rules, centers were regularly overrun in play of WitE
because the Soviets just did not 
have enough rail capacity to get them all out and still move troops to
critical areas. 

Furthermore the Stalingrad scenario set up instructions indicate that while
5 Training centers and 8 arms centers 
were moved off map to Siberia, 1 TC and 5 AC were lost.  Leningrad,
Krasnador and Vorenezh were evacuated successfully, 
only to never fall to the Axis. I note that Vorishilov and Rostov were
either evacuated or fell to the Axis.  My 
recollection is that Von Rumstead withdrew his units from the Rostov area so
as to create a shorter line for the winter,
much to Hitler's displeasure. (as to how he got there: see my earlier post
about the aftermath of the battle of Kiev.)

Suggestions: 
1) Let's give the Soviets 60 div of capacity the 2nd week after Total War is
declared. The first week the capacity 
should only be 30, which is not enough for all the on-map militia, 
2)  Restore the cost of moving an Arms center to 20 divisions. This will
keep them moving well into the Fall of the 1st Campaign 
season. 
3) Instead of treating production centers by the rules for other units or
limiting the movement rate to 10 hexes, let's set the allowance to 
 allow maximum relocation of 20 hexes per week and make the
entrainment/detrainment cost for a production center to be 20 movement
points, 
thus again making the movement of a center into a 3-week minimum process. 
4) Let any Center which makes it to Siberia exempt from the Arms center
disruption (since they are already disrupted for two or more 
cycles by the weeks spent moving them.) 
5) But no center may relocate except under conditions of Total War. 

One advantage here is that none of this has anything to do with whether or
not the Axis invades early or invades late. Assuming that the 
Axis gets some sort of break-through by the third week, production centers
will be overrun or cut off somewhere on the map. If production 
centers are lost, then the run-away to save the Army strategy becomes a lot
less feasible. 

A final suggestion is that the Number of Soviet TCs starting in Siberia be
reduced to 8 from the current 10. In 1st Edition WitE there were 
six off map and two in cities that were moved off map. The Soviets started
with 18, one of which had to be devoted exclusively to air units.
In WIE they get to start with 20, which allows them the luxury of
sacrificing one at Kiev, Odessa or Minsk and then risking another at 
Stalingrad, Rostov or Vorishilov. Worse yet, they can move the Gorky
training center to Leningrad or Vorhenz to shore up the defense there 

Eliminating those a-historical TC's will move a little more of placements to
on map centers, which may be slightly a-historical, but will reduce 
the rate of placement to a more historical level that first summer of the
campaign. 

BOB 
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