[WarInEur] ZOC projection

[Kent & Sue Haunschild]

What are the SPI rules?  Are they coded the same in CWIE1? Which erratum 
should be considered official? What are the changes from SPI, added to the 
DG rules when it re-released?

and Drum roll..

Is there some universal rules that can be used to simpify coding in CWIE2 
which is the only thing I am interested in at this point?

However, on a personal note.  If you are so negative about the future of 
this game, games of its type and view any modifications as pro-Axis why do 
you even participate in the List?  And, why is it that any change that both 
makes the game results more closely model history is viewed as pro-axis.

I know the Germans lose.  They lost historically and should lose in the 
game, but its the process of losing that needs refinement in my opinion even 
if some of the changes appear to be pro-axis that is not the intent.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "srm" <foufut at yahoo.com>
To: "Warineur" <warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] ZOC projection


> how about we KEEP the WIE rules.
>
>
> What's the upshot of this latest  "rules change
> suggestions" Mr. Haunschild?
>
> i'm taking a wild guess here..
>
> ... it will make ZOCs not hinder Axis (mostly German)
> after they attack minor neutrals.
>
> (drum roll)
>
> ANOTHER pro-Axis "rule".
>
> this the problem with "replaying" WWII. The Axis lost,
> and somehow that is a bummer for so many older game
> players. But there is hope for the future.
>
>
> I'll now speak from some experience as i have  taught
> thousands of kids in  HS for many years. Ther are many
> kids who like  the game concepts we liked as kids,
> but...
>
>
> today's kids aren't interested in WWII "Give the
> Whermacht a break" revisionism because what they do
> glean out of WWII --however unfair that may sound-- is
> that the Axis were bad and deserved to lose, period.
>
> Consequently, the future of our hobby is more
> democratic (small d) "adventure roleplaying" (ugh) OR
> wargames (from any era!) were battles are tactical or
> operational (without the "messy " strategic issues
> like looting, forced abor or concentration camps)
> were the combatants can be on equal (by this i mean "
> democratic") footing.
>
>
> A strategic wargame has a definite built-in
> favoritism, and kids today just do not favor the
> nazi/fascists in WWII.
>
> Ever wonder why Vietnam stratgic games do not sell?
> US kids would rather root for the Vietnamese in a
> US-Vietnam strategic game!
>
> Strategic games and their broad "rules" are on the way
> out in the age of nanotechnology, microcasting,
> cocooning and and iPods.
>
>
>
>
> --- Kent & Sue Haunschild <kentsue at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Quick questions.  As a general rule ZOC do not
>> extend across national borders on the turn a Neutral
>> receives a DOW.  Is this an absolute?
>>
>> What happens when adjacent countries receive a DOW
>> on the same turn?  If countries armed forces are
>> forbidden to leave the country, do their ZOC project
>> across the border at any time?
>>
>> For example, if the Soviets DOW Rumania and Hungary
>> on the same turn do the ZOC of Hungarian units
>> project into Rumania and vice-versa for the Rumanian
>> units immediately or only at the beginning of the
>> second turn?
>>
>> Same situation exists for Greece/Yugoslavia.
>> Holland/Belgium, Belgium/France.  In all four of
>> these situations there were either antagonisms or no
>> prewar planning for mutual aid.  In the case of
>> Holland, and Yugoslavia the units cannot leave their
>> respective countries. This last also applies to
>> Eire, Portugal, and Switzerland. Spain may not enter
>> France.
>>
>> Can we agree on a universal rule? And, if so, how
>> should it read?
>>
>> Examples:
>>
>> 1) ZOC never extend across a border hex side on the
>> turn a Neutral receives a DOW.
>>
>> 2) ZOC for those units which are unable to leave
>> their country never extend across a border hex side.
>>
>> 3) On the turn that a country joins an alliance, the
>> ZOC of the Neutral receiving a DOW or joining do to
>> a political point trigger do not extend across
>> border hex sides.
>>
>> 4) On the turn that a country joins an alliance the
>> ZOC of units active in an alliance do not extend
>> into the Neutral receiving the DOW or joining do to
>> a political point trigger.
>>
>> Basically what these rules say is that ZOC do not
>> extend across borders in either direction on the
>> turn of the DOW and never extend outside a country
>> whose units are restricted to the country.
>>
>> Comments? Alternative wording?
>>
>> Kent>
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>
>
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