[WarInEur] Queries

Sun Dec 16 16:24:59 EST 2007

WarInEur Digest, Vol 41, Issue 27re: 2  The rule says "through the North Seas"  you cannot reach Oslo or Kristiansand without passing "through" a North Seas Hex regardless of whether or not the Allies hold the ports. Any Allied Sea Movement through the North Sea is subject to Axis interdiction regardless of destination.  Ir is coded this way in CWIE2

re: 3  The problem with any game of this complexity is the ambiguity and loopholes in the rules.  That is why most players have house rules that suppliment the official rules.  Some of these house rules have taken on the stature of semi-official errata. 

If I remember the three city rule also had an advisory by the designers that it was open to abuse and suggested some other types of triggers.

The easiest one to apply in this case would be to modify the rule so it reads three personnel Centers captured or unable to trace a LOC to Siberia.   I believe the designers suggested 300 Soviet divisions destroyed.  Regardless, this was a foreseeable problem that should have been covered before the game started or at the very least before the Soviet player committed himself.

I suggested a fairable trigger based on probability.  1) Once the Axis penetrate into Soviet territory then the Soviet player can check for Total war activation but not before. ) Soviet territory is prewar 1939 non annexed hexes). The probability of activation is 1% per turn. 2) a Count of units destroyed after the aforementioned penetration is started.  Each 20 units destroyed increases the probability of activation by 1% 3) each Personnel Center Captures or unable to trace a LOC increases the probability by 2%.

So, if three PC were captured the probability would be 7%.  Losses would easily increase this above 10%, which would almost guarantee Total war within 6-8 turns.

BUT, what happens if the Axis doesn't invade.  Well then the Soviet has increased his production from Peace time to Limited War numbers without penalty.  He can evacuate all his Arms Centers to Siberia and have then on line waiting to go when Total War does break out.  He can move six TC to Lenningrad and stack them two high with a 5-5 or higher Corps and have a minimum 25 point behind a river line defense which isn't going to fall.

So, if the Soviets DOW Germany, the Axis player has no choice except to try and take down the Soviets without triggering Total War.  If you make the trigger too easy then there is no reason as a Soviet player to not DOW German because it makes good economic sense.  If you make it to hard then the Soviet Player will lose badly.

Looking at the numbers, I think I'd backoff on my suggested probabilities above and make them 1% per Soviet PC captured or surrounded and forget about anything else.

In your game you mention two PC captured, and another three surrounded.  This would be 5%, which should be plenty to move the Soviets to Total war within 15-20 turns on average.

Personally, I don't think the Soviets were incapable of going to war in 1939, 1940, or 1941 and would have lost big time had they tried..  They may have had a chance in 1942.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Buckley, John D. 
  To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:37 PM
  Subject: [WarInEur] Queries

  Further comments on my queries of a few days ago.

  1. Entirely agree on the 6-5 under amph assault not having the option to 1-5KG if it has no legal hex to retreat to. Opponent wanted reassurance.

  2. As for the ports in Norway issue (Kristiansand and Oslo) well they are NOT part of the North Sea area for purposes of interdiction of Allied naval movement/assault, yet Stavangar and Bergen are. This makes little sense. In our game the  Allies have captured Krstiansand and Oslo and can happily move troops into these ports without fear of Axis naval/maritime interdiction, but they cannot do so into Bergen and Stavangar, even though they hold these ports too. Sorry, although it's not a very likely occurrence, it is something of an anomaly. Either interdiction into Kristiansand and Oslo should carry on as long as the Germans hold Denmark (does this mean until it is liberated?) or it should end in Stavangar and Bergen if the Allies are able to trace naval movement into Kristiansand and Oslo. 

  3. Presumably the total war trigger represents an extreme national emergency for the USSR. In our game (now last month of clear weather) the German player is 6 hexes or so from Moscow, has surrounded Leningrad, Kiev and Odessa and captured two other starred cities. He has studiously avoided moving into three empty starred cities. This sounds like an extreme emergency yet there is now no chance that total war will be triggered until the summer of 1942. I realise that we need a game device to make the Soviet player wary of early war adventuring, but the three city rule doesn't add up.  It's too 'gamey' and too fixed. Some randomness and series of political triggers would help. Cities being out of communication or rail link with map edge sounds OK, but in truth the German player should be sure of what will trigger total war; I'd suggest a random element. 

  Perhaps points 2 & 3 should be part of the thinking for CWIE2?

  PS We have a grumpy Soviet player who has brought this on himself to a degree but does have a point about the total war trigger; and a German player who is pushing the 'spirit' of the rules notion.

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