[WarInEur] strategic surprise rule - more lipstick for the piggy!; )

[Chuck Sutherland]

You do not have the ability to change you tactical doctrine no matter 
how much you know you as the Leader of your country can not provide the 
data that was acquired in combat. The allies over time adapted to the 
modern war style the Germans were using. Dieppe was a learning 
experience for the British, and a very bad defeat, only in time did they 
gain the ability to partially counter the German methods.

As for history, I do not want to condemn you to have to repeat history, 
certainly strategic choices can be made differently, I do want to free 
you from the WWI style positional play that happens in the middle of the 
game, where in 1942 except for the para terror attacks you can make 
little headway in Russia, and later when Patton is ready to rumble allow 
him to break the German defenses and go off to the races.

Once you restore the mobility the choice of where you take things is up 
to you, you can follow history, and that is something you can't do now 
against a competent player or either side. I would be in favor of just 
changing the French combat values for the second line units to a 2's or 
1's but this would only fix France and not address the root cause and 
that is armor/mobile units can't use that mobility to break through a 
weak spot and exploit.

Again I challenge you to play the 1940 scenario and give the French all 
their forces from the 39 scenario + reinforcements and let them setup 
freely. Use 2 mp for overruns and 1 mp for zoc, applying the blitz zoc 
rules and watch what happens to your standard double line defense. You 
can't stop the Germans and its a very scary feeling to be out of control 
and in total reaction mode trying to stem the tide of armor exploiting 
into your rear areas. The alternative is a WWI style combat that is 
about as exciting as watching grass grow!

All things are connected, the brits ruling in NA is caused by France 
lasting to long, dealing with the root cause, that of mobility in combat 
will begin to fix the real issues, then you can deal with the para 
effects and take away the forced retreats because you won't need them to 
take territory etc.

If you want to see how poorly the combat system is modeled play without 
paras. Once the russians start using 9-6/5-5/AT combinations to hold 
critical hexes you will not advance till you have 13-8's, and later you 
will only take ground when the germans decide to allow you to take it.

As for stopping the Russians or Allied in 44, if you have enough panzers 
around and the air power I think you should be able to rock their world!

Noel & Pamela wrote:
>> Doesn't matter if there are a million players play testing if you can't 
>> match history! Historical movement 1940 May 16-21, 5 days Germans move 
>> 100+ miles, 5 hexes in a week against France.
>>     
>
> Disagree completely.
>
> To allow this to occur would require me, as the Cwlth commander, to perform
> as incompetently as the real Cwlth commanders did - and I know everything
> that they didn't know, and I can't forget that.
>
> Any simulation that provides exact historical recreation is a wonderful
> thing to behold, but is also a boring and completely DEAD letter.  I want to
> NOT repeat history as the defender.  All you want to do is condemn me to
> watching a rerun overwhich I have no control.
>
> And as the German in 1944, I want to stop the Russian juggernaut, and the
> Normandy invasion - but you won't let that happen, as that doesn't replicate
> history.
>
> No, No a 1000 times NO.
>
>
> regards,
> Noel  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
> [mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Chuck Sutherland
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:40 AM
> To: sgminfo
> Cc: Wardall Clark; warineur at mailman.halisp.net
> Subject: Re: [WarInEur] strategic surprise rule - more lipstick for the
> piggy!;)
>
>
> Doesn't matter if there are a million players play testing if you can't 
> match history! Historical movement 1940 May 16-21, 5 days Germans move 
> 100+ miles, 5 hexes in a week against France. Does the changes so far
> proposed allow this to happen?
>
> http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/d/d1/1940FranceBlitz.jpg
>
>
> Attack on the March, limited to only the Mech phase. Germans attack on 
> several hex fronts and move 20 miles in the combat phase. During the 
> Mech move phase they hit the second line at 3-1 or higher with 2x 8-8 
> and 2x10-8, using air they get a DR, thats 2+1 mp, they hit a second 
> stack, another 3-1 or better, they have gained 3 hexes total for 60 
> miles and if they are free of enemy ZOC they move another 2 hexes for a 
> total of 5! Historical gains in one week!
>
> Attack on the March using both phases, movement phase they hit twice at 
> 3-1, attack again in the combat phase at 3-1 or better and finish up 
> with 2 more attacks for a total of 5 hexes taken. If there is a gap they 
> may do better then 5 hexes if the French player has not defended very 
> deep. And considering there is a real chance of an exchange or BR the 
> germns will flip a few units in order to gain territory.
>
>
>
> France falls quickly, very much like historical time lines. Sealion now 
> has several months to be a threat and keep the English home to protect 
> against invasion. Because a majority of English divisions are home, the 
> Germans and Italians can build up in NA with a much better chance of 
> causing some grief instead of being overwhelmed from Tunisia or Egypt 
> from 20 or more divisions.
>
> Thus AOM fixes both France 1940 and North Africa to give the Germans a 
> good start, in the NA battles the Italians can be of use in a defense in 
> depth and the brits have to watch out for a very mobile opponent.
>
> June 1941, again will the changes allow Minsk to fall in the first turn? 
> If not then the change does not represent the historical gains made by 
> Germany in the first week of the war.
> AOM blows open the front allows a movement deep into the USSR, no matter 
> how the Russians defend.
>
> Again historical gains, but it will break the production system because 
> it was designed without the massive losses the russians suffered in 
> 1941, so 3 things fixed, one thing broken that needs retooling to up the 
> numbers of russian troops to slow the germans. Of course this assumes 
> that the silly AEX for OOS attacks is finally killed.
>
>
> Ok I am officially stopping the snipe hunt for now, I know I am a pain 
> with this argument, but I know that I want to see this baby sing at 
> blitz speed. It can if we have the guts to try! For the record I am FOR 
> ANY change that brings historical abilities for the mech forces of all 
> nations and know that this is what is being worked for, I just want the 
> hole deal.
>
> As for Europa, any system where the armor hides behind the infantry, 
> comes out and attacks and then hides again to protect against being hit 
> by the other sides armor is silly! At least that is how it played the 
> last time I looked at it.
>
>
>
>
>
> sgminfo wrote:
>   
>> Well there should be a surfeit of players on the list here with 
>> experience of that particular animal, so these will not be slow in 
>> coming to the mark...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> -|steve|-
>>
>> Chuck Sutherland wrote:
>>     
>>> Yes but taking small baby steps to towards a mobile combat system 
>>> means that you have to rebalance and re playtest it anyway, so you 
>>> are already doing the extra work but not gaining the goal of showing 
>>> off the blitzkrieg style of combat. We we will take 20 small steps 
>>> over the course of what 20 years maybe and end up in the same place.
>>>
>>> Lets just make the quantum leap and get on with it! That way we are 
>>> talking about maybe 3-5 years to test the options.
>>>
>>> The subroutines are already there, the combat system just simply 
>>> needs to be able to be turned on when the overrun code is triggered, 
>>> a flag setting combat during movement on, the costs of overruns is 
>>> already recorded in the code at 2 mp. The Russian production system 
>>> is already coded, all that is needed is to make it work during the 
>>> weekly turns, again a flag to turn it on, the only change there might 
>>> be moving from a cycle count to a turn count for entry of units.
>>>
>>> After that its a matter of tuning the production to give increased 
>>> 1-4 and 1-3 production while turning down the 4-4s to make them stay 
>>> level with that is currently being produced.
>>>
>>> Even if the AEX could be turned off by using a flag,
>>>
>>> If you move the Minsk training center to Lenningrad, the combat and 
>>> movement system should allow the Germans to reach and take Minsk on 
>>> the first turn of the war. If you use the historical 1940 scenario 
>>> you should be able to take france out in 6 weeks, if you can't then 
>>> you have not reached the proper mobility levels. I think the counter 
>>> mix will allow it without any renumbering of counter strengths.
>>>
>>> If I knew how to use cyberboard and thought there was an outside 
>>> chance that we could actually get to this level of change I would 
>>> playtest the hell out of the system proposals.
>>>
>>> sgminfo wrote:
>>>       
>>>> The caveat is, as always, change only one thing at a time as you 
>>>> experiment, moving the goal posts in 3 dimensions simultaneously is 
>>>> apt to give unexpected results as players find new ways to exploit 
>>>> your new environment to the limits. Moving many variables tends to 
>>>> leave you with a new game and a heap load of playtesting to sort out 
>>>> the unexpected.
>>>>
>>>> ..as the beta test group have found...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -|steve|-
>>>>
>>>> Chuck Sutherland wrote:
>>>>         
>>>>> Oh its actually pretty easy, just allow the Russians to build units 
>>>>> each turn instead of every four turns and lower the number of units 
>>>>> built except for 1-3 and 1-4s to 1. Historically during the active 
>>>>> campaign the Russians lost between 3.5 and 4 million men in 41. 
>>>>> Based on the starting OOB and the militia that is added, you have 
>>>>> to be able to produce about 320-350 1-4 to match the manpower on 
>>>>> the eastern front. So in about 4 production cycles you need about 
>>>>> 20 training centers pushing out 1-4s if you were using the normal 
>>>>> production rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus my conclusion is the Russian 1-4 cannon fodder production is 
>>>>> way down, the reason is to compensate for the lack of mobility and 
>>>>> the AEX OOS supply effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Every suggestion that has been talked about, is a bandage of sorts 
>>>>> for the flaw in the combat system and the lack of mobile combat 
>>>>> that is partially made up by parachute units. So the current combat 
>>>>> system has the Paras as the most important ground unit for taking 
>>>>> territory instead of armor, because armor can be stopped by 3 
>>>>> points worth of defenders or less if there is a river involved!
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can apply a small bandage here and there like was done 
>>>>> originally aka lower then historical Russian production, over 
>>>>> modeled parachute effects and continue to past and plaster adding 
>>>>> additional lipstick to the pig in the hopes that something pretty 
>>>>> will finally show up, or you can bite the bullet and take apart the 
>>>>> combat system and restructure it so that is models historical results.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now even with surprise, you can't model France 1940, you 
>>>>> can't model Russia 1941 on, and because France is broken you can't 
>>>>> model North Africa because Sealion is not as big a threat as it 
>>>>> would be in middle of summer 1940.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless you can drop France in six weeks and take Minsk on turn one 
>>>>> of Barbarossa you have not modeled the historical abilities of the 
>>>>> German army in early WWII! Does the optional rule allow this to 
>>>>> take place????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sgminfo wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Given that Chuck points out the 'hazards in terms of 
>>>>>> implementation, i.e. additional work on ob and counter sets, 
>>>>>> nothing need be said on that poont...but a consideration that 
>>>>>> might be useful in the implementation of such a rule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Painting the extreme case,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the penetration and exploitation of a line, without the defender 
>>>>>> being able to physically react because of the strictures of the 
>>>>>> game turn (alternate phase sequencing)...one might consider 
>>>>>> reaction movement, or a variation thereto.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i.e. The Arnhem situation, where airborne land and XXX corps  
>>>>>> double match throught the German line, and past a SS Panzer 
>>>>>> division, through Zocs and into a link up...
>>>>>> Instead of the German division being totally passive, and the zoc 
>>>>>> being totally fluid, one might have the ability to enmesh someone 
>>>>>> in a zoc, such that they have to stop...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This might thereby allow well found and rested reserves to really 
>>>>>> act as a 'firebrigade ' style unit as operational reserves tend to 
>>>>>> do...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There might be a trigger die roll, based on the strength 
>>>>>> (attrition) and training (crt number) of the units in reserve, 
>>>>>> that modify the capabilities...so an Italian 1-4 on crt 4 might 
>>>>>> not have reaction abilities, or reaction abilities are resytricted 
>>>>>> to mechanised and or elite units...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it is an idea to think about...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key element is allowing the defender not to be so unhinged 
>>>>>> (given a moderately balanced situation), that he is in defeat 
>>>>>> before he can roll with the blow and punch back...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -|steve|-
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don Lazov wrote:
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Chuck,
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Are your combat on the move ideas similar to OCS during movement 
>>>>>>> overruns?
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> For those not in the know, in OCS during your movement phase (or 
>>>>>>> the enemy's reaction movement phase) you may overrun units, in 
>>>>>>> this sense overrun is just like combat but you do it in the 
>>>>>>> movement phase by expending MP to overrun a hex, you may not even 
>>>>>>> take the hex, but cause losses (to both your self and his forces).
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Again in OCS the only units that have a ZOC are units in Combat 
>>>>>>> mode.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Don Lazov
>>>>>>> ~Best Regards
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>           
>>>       
>
>
>   


-- 
Chuck Sutherland
Technology Specialist
Gamewood, Inc.
116 South Ridge Street
Danville, VA 24541
(434) 799-8407 x218