[WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

[sgminfo]

dsl wrote:
> An Overrun means that the enemy has come on you with such overwhelming force
> (aka 13:1 odds) that the defending unit is quickly rendered totally in
> effective in combat. Think US vs Iraqi army in either gulf war. 
>
> As to which is going to result in a larger "partisan cadre"? I think it is
> six of one vs half a dozen of the other. Did the overwhelming shock and awe
> of the overrun lead you to lose heart to the degree that you wouldn't join
> the partisans?
>
> If I remember correctly, the US army guideline was somewhere around a 3-4%
> loss and the unit was considered shaken and needing to be withdrawn for
> refitting. A 10% loss and the unit was shattered and would likely not be
> able to be reconstituted. There were certainly exceptions to these rules
> (e.g. 101 and 82 at Bastogne), but that was the guideline. So even in a
> 'shattered' unit, 90% of the manpower was still there. Now part of this may
> be related to the US having a large tail to teeth ratio (lots of people
> behind the lines). But if I am remembering at all correctly, the issue isn't
> going to be how many dead as far as making up a partisan cadre.
>
> I think a better way of thinking about the Yugoslavian partisans is a
> general partisan potential. A few odds and ends in terms of guns, some man
> power with training, some units that receive orders aimed towards making
> them more effective in a guerilla war (e.g. placement when they die), etc.
> As such, it is pretty hard to argue that an overrun unit should be treated
> differently from a unit killed in combat.

I might differ in interpretation, thereby drawing a different 
conclusion. Perhaps the circumstances are differing.

For example, an overrun at Beda Fomm, results in Italians surrendering 
in droves, not because of any deficiency in the fighting value of the 
men, but because there is nowhere else they can go, shorn of supply, 
ability to live off the land, and the lack of local friendlies, options 
are somewhat limited.

In Yugoslavia, in poor terrain, with armour unable to pursue into broken 
terrain, the temptation is simply to be temporarily overwhelmed, and to 
drop weapons and melt into the friendly countryside, giving rest, 
respite, and the opportunity to reorganise. i.e. you can actually run 
away and hide.

The DE result is as much the ability to permanently remove the men from 
the enemy's order of battle, usually by the control and processing of 
prisoners. An overrun is usually a situation where temporarily the 
suppression of the enemy fighting force is achieved, such that, if not 
rapidly reinforced and followed up, that force can reconstitute its 
manpower and slowly regroup and reform. Many of the initial actions in 
Yugoslavia simply overwhelmed the axis ability to 'process the booty' of 
victory, and these manpower assets rapidly slipped through their 
fingers, to be lost into the countryside..

With more highly motivated and trained individuals, such as in the 
German army, being overrun, this did not result in the permanent loss of 
all assets, the inability to control the battlefield in breakthrough 
battles resulted in a steady stream of flotsam from broken formations 
appearing in rear areas from which they were regularly drawn in, 
reorganised, and formed into adhoc formations that could continue to 
harrass and delay the invaders. The German army specialised in 
reconstituting formations in this way.

When that system broke down in 1945, with the presence of a friendly 
hinterland, german fighting formations more readily disintegrated, and 
those that wanted to see daylight after the war took the opportunity to 
melt away in apparently more hopeless situations.


Thus, the overrun is more likely to result in cadre formation in a 
friendly local populace, than the standard DE type of result.

The follow up in 1945, is to be contrasted with Iraq where availability 
of local cover and succour enabled such dissolved formations to form the 
basis of the raw material for cadre formation, and insurgency creation.


-|steve|-



-|steve|-