[WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

Sun Dec 9 06:46:31 EST 2007

Further to this the BWIE rules said that Partisan Divisions could exit
Yugoslavia.

There were at least three different groups of  resistance  forces in
Yugoslavia, Please forgive me if I spell them wrongly,

There were the "Mihailoviks" who were I think the Royalists

There were the "Chetniks" and

There were the "Partisans" under Tito, communists. After which all
"resistance" forces have come to be known.

They spent as much time fighting each other as they did the Germans and
would on occasion Help the Germans against the others.

Around. After a while the allies withdrew recognition (support) for he first
two and backed only Tito's partisans who wore Uniforms and obeyed the Geneva
Convention.

  _____  

From: warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net
[mailto:warineur-bounces at mailman.halisp.net] On Behalf Of Don Lazov
Sent: Sunday, 9 December 2007 10:30 AM
To: Kent & Sue Haunschild
Cc: ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net; warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

The only problem is that the "errata" was not official SPI errata.

The KC/LA errata never was it was just a bunch of fellows stating their
views, the best source during this era of course was and always has been
Karl Gaarose and Dave Powell.

But obviously movement is not a form a combat and no cadres are created.

Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote: 

Gentlemen

The original SPI rule said "axis action" but then went on the define Axis
actions "as combat or Yugoslavian Surrender."  One of the errata clarified
this to mean that when Yugoslavians were overrun they didn't form Cadre
since overruns were a form of movement not combat.  CWIE1 picked up on this
and coded it that way and to date CWIE2 is copying the CWIE1 behavior.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Don Lazov <mailto:dlazov at comcast.net>  

To: ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net 

Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 

Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:26 PM

Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

It's directly from 1976 rules. It does say any actions but fails to state if
overrun is part of it, that is why I put in the WitE 1974 rule where SPI did
in fact state it clearly. They probably dropped the ball in 76 because in
reality if the Yugo Unit is overrun the remnants would scatter to the winds
and create a  partisan cadre, but I did  want to point out that the rule in
this case is ambiguously written.

Face to face you and I would come up with one interpretation and across the
pond two other blokes with another. In WitE 1st no such thing would happen
since the rule is clear and precise.

Cheers.

dsl wrote: 

I pulled the rule quote language out of the CWIE I rule book. I haven't seen
my BWIE rules in quite a while.

Is your rule quote the SPI or newer version of the rules?

  _____  

From: Don Lazov [mailto:dlazov at comcast.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:07 PM
To: Hansen
Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

Hansen,

Your SPI rule quote is incorrect.

It says this:

[31.51] Creation of Yugoslavian Cadres
Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminated
by Axis actions either as a result of combat or because of the surrender of
Yugoslavia) the counter is flipped over in place to form a Yugoslavian
Partisan Cadre.

There is no mention in the SPI rule of overrun here. Case in point of the
"broadness" of the rules.

Now if we go back to the original rule (i.e., War in the East 1st Edition)
there is no ambiguous rule.

[28.0] OPTIONAL RULE: PARTISANS

GENERAL RULE:

Only Russian infantry and cavalry units may attempt to become partisan
cadres. Whenever a Russian infantry or cavalry unit is completely eliminated
anywhere in Russia by any means other than a forced march attempt, the
Russian Player rolls a die. If a "one" or a "two" is rolled (only), a
partisan cadre is formed. The Russian Player immediately places a partisan
cadre marker in the hex where the unit was eliminated. At the start of each
Russian Player-Turn, the Russian Player may attempt to convert any, all or
none of his partisan cadres into regular partisan units.

PROCEDURE:

To convert a partisan cadre into a partisan unit, the Russian Player rolls a
die for each cadre he wishes to convert. If a "one" is obtained, that cadre
is converted; any other result has no effect. Whenever a successful
conversion is made, the Russian Player flips over the cadre marker to reveal
a partisan unit.

Hansen wrote: 

Kent:
However, in the setup instructions the Axis player has 50 divisions that can
be placed in Yugoslavia.  Once these are placed the Allied player cn place
the Yugoslavian units in any hex not in an Axis ZOC.  However, it requires
less than 40 divisions to completely cover Yugoslavia with ZOC so
theoretically, without even using all of available Axis units they can
compleatly eliminate any chance of Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre placement. 

John:
If the Axis is putting 40 divisions in Yugoslavia for garrison (even
assuming axis minor ally divisions) then the allied player has already
received their reward. I will gladly trade all Yugoslavian partisan
possibilities for effectively taking 40 Axis divisions off the map.

Kent:
1) SPI 31.51 Creation of Yugoslavian Cadre.

Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminated
by Axis action (either by Overun, as a result of combat, or the surrender of
Yugoslavia) a Partisan Cadre is placed in the Yugoslavian Cadre Pool.
Beginning with the Allied turn following Yugoslavian Surrender, the Allied
player may place one Partisan Cadre per turn in any hex in Yugolsavia not in
an Axis ZOC.

2) SPI 73.5 Yugoslavian Partisans

Add The numbers of Cadre, Units, and Divisions listed are to be considered a
pool.  If the conditions for deployment do not exist at the start of a
scenario or campaign, they may be deployed one Cadre, Unit, or Division per
turn until all are placed on the map.

John:
CWIE I treated an overrun as an absolute elimination. But going back to the
rules, that seems to be a bug/feature.

23.4 Yugoslavian Partisans.

     Yugoslavian partisans are controlled by the Allied player, but do not
count against the limit of 21 partisans that he may place.  When Yugoslav
units are eliminated they are replaced with Allied Partisan Cadres.  When
Yugoslavia surrenders, all remaining units are eliminated and replaced with
partisan cadres.  The Axis player cannot attack Yugoslavian Partisan Cadres
until the first Yugoslavian Partisan Unit has formed.

     The Allied player converts Yugoslav Partisan Cadres into Partisan Units
the same as with Allied Partisans, except there is a limit on the number of
conversion attempts allowed a turn:
     1939-1940  0 attempts/turn
     1941       1 attempt/turn
     1942       2 attempts/turn
     1943-1945  3 attempt/turn
Each attempt has a 1/6 chance of success.

     Beginning in 1943 the Allied player may attempt once per turn to
convert a Yugoslav Partisan Unit into a 2-5 Yugoslav Partisan Division.
This is done during Reinforcement Phase by clicking on the hex with the
Partisan Unit in it, and selecting the appropriate option.  The chance of
success is 1/6.

So according to the rules, the regular units should be eliminated at a
partisan cadre put in place (wherever that may be). No exemptions for
overrun. I checked the overrun rules and it says the unit doesn't form a
battle group, but nothing about forming a partisan cadre. I suspect that
that is the source of the bug/feature.

Yugoslavia has always tended to be a pretty minor front. A few
Italians/Hungarians keep the rail lines open and don't care about the rest.
If a partisan division shows up (that could do some real harm), deal with it
then. 

I would tend to say keep the rules as is and just implement them correctly
(as opposed to the CWIE I total elimination on an overrun). It makes the '41
set up of 38 partisans make sense. As to where the units are, yes you will
get a lot on the plains. But as the Yugoslavian mover, there comes a point
(relatively quickly in the game) that you leave 3 combat points in Belgrade
for one last turn, and every other surviving unit force marches for the
mountains. This gives me plenty of partisan cadre conversion bait up in the
mountains. 

With attrition, I suspect that the strategies around "mopping" up the random
partisan cadre will change.

If I was going to make any change in the rules, I would let the Yugoslavian
player have the choice between returning any eliminated Yugoslavian partisan
cadre to the board (normal partisan placement rules in effect) or turning a
partisan cadre into a partisan unit as per the rules above. 

_______________________________________________
WarInEur mailing list
WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net
http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur

  _____  

_______________________________________________
WarInEur mailing list
WarInEur at mailman.halisp.net
http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.halisp.net/pipermail/warineur/attachments/20071209/2c5c0cac/attachment-0001.html