[WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans
Don Lazov
dlazov at comcast.net
Sat Dec 8 18:30:26 EST 2007
The only problem is that the "errata" was not official SPI errata.
The KC/LA errata never was it was just a bunch of fellows stating their
views, the best source during this era of course was and always has been
Karl Gaarose and Dave Powell.
But obviously movement is not a form a combat and no cadres are created.
Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> Gentlemen
>
> The original SPI rule said "axis action" but then went on the define
> Axis actions "as combat or Yugoslavian Surrender." One of the errata
> clarified this to mean that when Yugoslavians were overrun they didn't
> form Cadre since overruns were a form of movement not combat. CWIE1
> picked up on this and coded it that way and to date CWIE2 is copying
> the CWIE1 behavior.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Don Lazov <mailto:dlazov at comcast.net>
> *To:* ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net
> <mailto:ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net>
> *Cc:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net
> <mailto:warineur at mailman.halisp.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:26 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans
>
> It's directly from 1976 rules. It does say any actions but fails
> to state if overrun is part of it, that is why I put in the WitE
> 1974 rule where SPI did in fact state it clearly. They probably
> dropped the ball in 76 because in reality if the Yugo Unit is
> overrun the remnants would scatter to the winds and create a
> partisan cadre, but I did want to point out that the rule in this
> case is ambiguously written.
>
> Face to face you and I would come up with one interpretation and
> across the pond two other blokes with another. In WitE 1st no such
> thing would happen since the rule is clear and precise.
>
> Cheers.
>
> dsl wrote:
>>
>> I pulled the rule quote language out of the CWIE I rule book. I
>> haven't seen my BWIE rules in quite a while.
>>
>> Is your rule quote the SPI or newer version of the rules?
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Don Lazov [mailto:dlazov at comcast.net]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:07 PM
>> *To:* Hansen
>> *Cc:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net
>> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans
>>
>> Hansen,
>>
>> Your SPI rule quote is incorrect.
>>
>> It says this:
>>
>> [31.51] Creation of Yugoslavian Cadres
>> Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is
>> eliminated by Axis actions either as a result of combat or
>> because of the surrender of Yugoslavia) the counter is flipped
>> over in place to form a Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre.
>>
>> There is no mention in the SPI rule of overrun here. Case in
>> point of the "broadness" of the rules.
>>
>> Now if we go back to the original rule (i.e., War in the East 1st
>> Edition) there is no ambiguous rule.
>>
>> [28.0] OPTIONAL RULE: PARTISANS
>>
>> GENERAL RULE:
>>
>> Only Russian infantry and cavalry units may attempt to become
>> partisan cadres. Whenever a Russian infantry or cavalry unit is
>> completely eliminated anywhere in Russia by any means other than
>> a forced march attempt, the Russian Player rolls a die. If a
>> "one" or a "two" is rolled (only), a partisan cadre is formed.
>> The Russian Player immediately places a partisan cadre marker in
>> the hex where the unit was eliminated. At the start of each
>> Russian Player-Turn, the Russian Player may attempt to convert
>> any, all or none of his partisan cadres into regular partisan units.
>>
>> PROCEDURE:
>>
>> To convert a partisan cadre into a partisan unit, the Russian
>> Player rolls a die for each cadre he wishes to convert. If a
>> "one" is obtained, that cadre is converted; any other result has
>> no effect. Whenever a successful conversion is made, the Russian
>> Player flips over the cadre marker to reveal a partisan unit.
>>
>>
>> Hansen wrote:
>>
>> Kent:
>> However, in the setup instructions the Axis player has 50 divisions that can
>> be placed in Yugoslavia. Once these are placed the Allied player cn place
>> the Yugoslavian units in any hex not in an Axis ZOC. However, it requires
>> less than 40 divisions to completely cover Yugoslavia with ZOC so
>> theoretically, without even using all of available Axis units they can
>> compleatly eliminate any chance of Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre placement.
>>
>> John:
>> If the Axis is putting 40 divisions in Yugoslavia for garrison (even
>> assuming axis minor ally divisions) then the allied player has already
>> received their reward. I will gladly trade all Yugoslavian partisan
>> possibilities for effectively taking 40 Axis divisions off the map.
>>
>> Kent:
>> 1) SPI 31.51 Creation of Yugoslavian Cadre.
>>
>> Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminated
>> by Axis action (either by Overun, as a result of combat, or the surrender of
>> Yugoslavia) a Partisan Cadre is placed in the Yugoslavian Cadre Pool.
>> Beginning with the Allied turn following Yugoslavian Surrender, the Allied
>> player may place one Partisan Cadre per turn in any hex in Yugolsavia not in
>> an Axis ZOC.
>>
>> 2) SPI 73.5 Yugoslavian Partisans
>>
>> Add The numbers of Cadre, Units, and Divisions listed are to be considered a
>> pool. If the conditions for deployment do not exist at the start of a
>> scenario or campaign, they may be deployed one Cadre, Unit, or Division per
>> turn until all are placed on the map.
>>
>> John:
>> CWIE I treated an overrun as an absolute elimination. But going back to the
>> rules, that seems to be a bug/feature.
>>
>> 23.4 Yugoslavian Partisans.
>>
>> Yugoslavian partisans are controlled by the Allied player, but do not
>> count against the limit of 21 partisans that he may place. When Yugoslav
>> units are eliminated they are replaced with Allied Partisan Cadres. When
>> Yugoslavia surrenders, all remaining units are eliminated and replaced with
>> partisan cadres. The Axis player cannot attack Yugoslavian Partisan Cadres
>> until the first Yugoslavian Partisan Unit has formed.
>>
>> The Allied player converts Yugoslav Partisan Cadres into Partisan Units
>> the same as with Allied Partisans, except there is a limit on the number of
>> conversion attempts allowed a turn:
>> 1939-1940 0 attempts/turn
>> 1941 1 attempt/turn
>> 1942 2 attempts/turn
>> 1943-1945 3 attempt/turn
>> Each attempt has a 1/6 chance of success.
>>
>> Beginning in 1943 the Allied player may attempt once per turn to
>> convert a Yugoslav Partisan Unit into a 2-5 Yugoslav Partisan Division.
>> This is done during Reinforcement Phase by clicking on the hex with the
>> Partisan Unit in it, and selecting the appropriate option. The chance of
>> success is 1/6.
>>
>>
>> So according to the rules, the regular units should be eliminated at a
>> partisan cadre put in place (wherever that may be). No exemptions for
>> overrun. I checked the overrun rules and it says the unit doesn't form a
>> battle group, but nothing about forming a partisan cadre. I suspect that
>> that is the source of the bug/feature.
>>
>> Yugoslavia has always tended to be a pretty minor front. A few
>> Italians/Hungarians keep the rail lines open and don't care about the rest.
>> If a partisan division shows up (that could do some real harm), deal with it
>> then.
>>
>> I would tend to say keep the rules as is and just implement them correctly
>> (as opposed to the CWIE I total elimination on an overrun). It makes the '41
>> set up of 38 partisans make sense. As to where the units are, yes you will
>> get a lot on the plains. But as the Yugoslavian mover, there comes a point
>> (relatively quickly in the game) that you leave 3 combat points in Belgrade
>> for one last turn, and every other surviving unit force marches for the
>> mountains. This gives me plenty of partisan cadre conversion bait up in the
>> mountains.
>>
>> With attrition, I suspect that the strategies around "mopping" up the random
>> partisan cadre will change.
>>
>> If I was going to make any change in the rules, I would let the Yugoslavian
>> player have the choice between returning any eliminated Yugoslavian partisan
>> cadre to the board (normal partisan placement rules in effect) or turning a
>> partisan cadre into a partisan unit as per the rules above.
>>
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