Fw: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

Sat Dec 8 18:23:26 EST 2007

Sorry hit send before I was finished with the question.

Gentlemen

The original SPI rule said "axis action" but then went on the define Axis actions "as combat or Yugoslavian Surrender."  One of the errata clarified this to mean that when Yugoslavians were overrun they didn't form Cadre since overruns were a form of movement not combat.  CWIE1 picked up on this and coded it that way and to date CWIE2 is copying the CWIE1 behavior.

The question is should CWIE2 be coded so that a Partisan Cadre is formed anytime a  Yugoslavian unit is eliminated?

Kent
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Don Lazov 
  To: ultrasoundimages at sbcglobal.net 
  Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
  Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 4:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

  It's directly from 1976 rules. It does say any actions but fails to state if overrun is part of it, that is why I put in the WitE 1974 rule where SPI did in fact state it clearly. They probably dropped the ball in 76 because in reality if the Yugo Unit is overrun the remnants would scatter to the winds and create a  partisan cadre, but I did  want to point out that the rule in this case is ambiguously written.

  Face to face you and I would come up with one interpretation and across the pond two other blokes with another. In WitE 1st no such thing would happen since the rule is clear and precise.

  Cheers.

  dsl wrote: 
    I pulled the rule quote language out of the CWIE I rule book. I haven't seen my BWIE rules in quite a while.

    Is your rule quote the SPI or newer version of the rules?

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    From: Don Lazov [mailto:dlazov at comcast.net] 
    Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:07 PM
    To: Hansen
    Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
    Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

    Hansen,

    Your SPI rule quote is incorrect.

    It says this:

    [31.51] Creation of Yugoslavian Cadres
    Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminated by Axis actions either as a result of combat or because of the surrender of Yugoslavia) the counter is flipped over in place to form a Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre.

    There is no mention in the SPI rule of overrun here. Case in point of the "broadness" of the rules.

    Now if we go back to the original rule (i.e., War in the East 1st Edition) there is no ambiguous rule.

    [28.0] OPTIONAL RULE: PARTISANS

    GENERAL RULE:

    Only Russian infantry and cavalry units may attempt to become partisan cadres. Whenever a Russian infantry or cavalry unit is completely eliminated anywhere in Russia by any means other than a forced march attempt, the Russian Player rolls a die. If a "one" or a "two" is rolled (only), a partisan cadre is formed. The Russian Player immediately places a partisan cadre marker in the hex where the unit was eliminated. At the start of each Russian Player-Turn, the Russian Player may attempt to convert any, all or none of his partisan cadres into regular partisan units.

    PROCEDURE:

    To convert a partisan cadre into a partisan unit, the Russian Player rolls a die for each cadre he wishes to convert. If a "one" is obtained, that cadre is converted; any other result has no effect. Whenever a successful conversion is made, the Russian Player flips over the cadre marker to reveal a partisan unit.

    Hansen wrote: 

Kent:However, in the setup instructions the Axis player has 50 divisions that canbe placed in Yugoslavia.  Once these are placed the Allied player cn placethe Yugoslavian units in any hex not in an Axis ZOC.  However, it requiresless than 40 divisions to completely cover Yugoslavia with ZOC sotheoretically, without even using all of available Axis units they cancompleatly eliminate any chance of Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre placement.  John:If the Axis is putting 40 divisions in Yugoslavia for garrison (evenassuming axis minor ally divisions) then the allied player has alreadyreceived their reward. I will gladly trade all Yugoslavian partisanpossibilities for effectively taking 40 Axis divisions off the map. Kent:1) SPI 31.51 Creation of Yugoslavian Cadre. Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminatedby Axis action (either by Overun, as a result of combat, or the surrender ofYugoslavia) a Partisan Cadre is placed in the Yugoslavian Cadre Pool.Beginning with the Allied turn following Yugoslavian Surrender, the Alliedplayer may place one Partisan Cadre per turn in any hex in Yugolsavia not inan Axis ZOC. 2) SPI 73.5 Yugoslavian Partisans Add The numbers of Cadre, Units, and Divisions listed are to be considered apool.  If the conditions for deployment do not exist at the start of ascenario or campaign, they may be deployed one Cadre, Unit, or Division perturn until all are placed on the map. John:CWIE I treated an overrun as an absolute elimination. But going back to therules, that seems to be a bug/feature. 23.4 Yugoslavian Partisans.      Yugoslavian partisans are controlled by the Allied player, but do notcount against the limit of 21 partisans that he may place.  When Yugoslavunits are eliminated they are replaced with Allied Partisan Cadres.  WhenYugoslavia surrenders, all remaining units are eliminated and replaced withpartisan cadres.  The Axis player cannot attack Yugoslavian Partisan Cadresuntil the first Yugoslavian Partisan Unit has formed.      The Allied player converts Yugoslav Partisan Cadres into Partisan Unitsthe same as with Allied Partisans, except there is a limit on the number ofconversion attempts allowed a turn:     1939-1940  0 attempts/turn     1941       1 attempt/turn     1942       2 attempts/turn     1943-1945  3 attempt/turnEach attempt has a 1/6 chance of success.      Beginning in 1943 the Allied player may attempt once per turn toconvert a Yugoslav Partisan Unit into a 2-5 Yugoslav Partisan Division.This is done during Reinforcement Phase by clicking on the hex with thePartisan Unit in it, and selecting the appropriate option.  The chance ofsuccess is 1/6.  So according to the rules, the regular units should be eliminated at apartisan cadre put in place (wherever that may be). No exemptions foroverrun. I checked the overrun rules and it says the unit doesn't form abattle group, but nothing about forming a partisan cadre. I suspect thatthat is the source of the bug/feature. Yugoslavia has always tended to be a pretty minor front. A fewItalians/Hungarians keep the rail lines open and don't care about the rest.If a partisan division shows up (that could do some real harm), deal with itthen.  I would tend to say keep the rules as is and just implement them correctly(as opposed to the CWIE I total elimination on an overrun). It makes the '41set up of 38 partisans make sense. As to where the units are, yes you willget a lot on the plains. But as the Yugoslavian mover, there comes a point(relatively quickly in the game) that you leave 3 combat points in Belgradefor one last turn, and every other surviving unit force marches for themountains. This gives me plenty of partisan cadre conversion bait up in themountains.  With attrition, I suspect that the strategies around "mopping" up the randompartisan cadre will change. If I was going to make any change in the rules, I would let the Yugoslavianplayer have the choice between returning any eliminated Yugoslavian partisancadre to the board (normal partisan placement rules in effect) or turning apartisan cadre into a partisan unit as per the rules above.  _______________________________________________WarInEur mailing listWarInEur at mailman.halisp.nethttp://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur   

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