[WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans

Sat Dec 8 17:26:59 EST 2007

It's directly from 1976 rules. It does say any actions but fails to 
state if overrun is part of it, that is why I put in the WitE 1974 rule 
where SPI did in fact state it clearly. They probably dropped the ball 
in 76 because in reality if the Yugo Unit is overrun the remnants would 
scatter to the winds and create a  partisan cadre, but I did  want to 
point out that the rule in this case is ambiguously written.

Face to face you and I would come up with one interpretation and across 
the pond two other blokes with another. In WitE 1st no such thing would 
happen since the rule is clear and precise.

Cheers.

dsl wrote:
>
> I pulled the rule quote language out of the CWIE I rule book. I 
> haven't seen my BWIE rules in quite a while.
>
>  
>
> Is your rule quote the SPI or newer version of the rules?
>
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Don Lazov [mailto:dlazov at comcast.net]
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:07 PM
> *To:* Hansen
> *Cc:* warineur at mailman.halisp.net
> *Subject:* Re: [WarInEur] Yugoslavian partisans
>
>  
>
> Hansen,
>
> Your SPI rule quote is incorrect.
>
> It says this:
>
> [31.51] Creation of Yugoslavian Cadres
> Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is 
> eliminated by Axis actions either as a result of combat or because of 
> the surrender of Yugoslavia) the counter is flipped over in place to 
> form a Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre.
>
> There is no mention in the SPI rule of overrun here. Case in point of 
> the "broadness" of the rules.
>
> Now if we go back to the original rule (i.e., War in the East 1st 
> Edition) there is no ambiguous rule.
>
> [28.0] OPTIONAL RULE: PARTISANS
>
> GENERAL RULE:
>
> Only Russian infantry and cavalry units may attempt to become partisan 
> cadres. Whenever a Russian infantry or cavalry unit is completely 
> eliminated anywhere in Russia by any means other than a forced march 
> attempt, the Russian Player rolls a die. If a "one" or a "two" is 
> rolled (only), a partisan cadre is formed. The Russian Player 
> immediately places a partisan cadre marker in the hex where the unit 
> was eliminated. At the start of each Russian Player-Turn, the Russian 
> Player may attempt to convert any, all or none of his partisan cadres 
> into regular partisan units.
>
> PROCEDURE:
>
> To convert a partisan cadre into a partisan unit, the Russian Player 
> rolls a die for each cadre he wishes to convert. If a "one" is 
> obtained, that cadre is converted; any other result has no effect. 
> Whenever a successful conversion is made, the Russian Player flips 
> over the cadre marker to reveal a partisan unit.
>
>
> Hansen wrote:
>
> Kent:
> However, in the setup instructions the Axis player has 50 divisions that can
> be placed in Yugoslavia.  Once these are placed the Allied player cn place
> the Yugoslavian units in any hex not in an Axis ZOC.  However, it requires
> less than 40 divisions to completely cover Yugoslavia with ZOC so
> theoretically, without even using all of available Axis units they can
> compleatly eliminate any chance of Yugoslavian Partisan Cadre placement. 
>  
> John:
> If the Axis is putting 40 divisions in Yugoslavia for garrison (even
> assuming axis minor ally divisions) then the allied player has already
> received their reward. I will gladly trade all Yugoslavian partisan
> possibilities for effectively taking 40 Axis divisions off the map.
>  
> Kent:
> 1) SPI 31.51 Creation of Yugoslavian Cadre.
>  
> Whenever a Yugoslavian infantry division or cavalry division is eliminated
> by Axis action (either by Overun, as a result of combat, or the surrender of
> Yugoslavia) a Partisan Cadre is placed in the Yugoslavian Cadre Pool.
> Beginning with the Allied turn following Yugoslavian Surrender, the Allied
> player may place one Partisan Cadre per turn in any hex in Yugolsavia not in
> an Axis ZOC.
>  
> 2) SPI 73.5 Yugoslavian Partisans
>  
> Add The numbers of Cadre, Units, and Divisions listed are to be considered a
> pool.  If the conditions for deployment do not exist at the start of a
> scenario or campaign, they may be deployed one Cadre, Unit, or Division per
> turn until all are placed on the map.
>  
> John:
> CWIE I treated an overrun as an absolute elimination. But going back to the
> rules, that seems to be a bug/feature.
>  
> 23.4 Yugoslavian Partisans.
>  
>      Yugoslavian partisans are controlled by the Allied player, but do not
> count against the limit of 21 partisans that he may place.  When Yugoslav
> units are eliminated they are replaced with Allied Partisan Cadres.  When
> Yugoslavia surrenders, all remaining units are eliminated and replaced with
> partisan cadres.  The Axis player cannot attack Yugoslavian Partisan Cadres
> until the first Yugoslavian Partisan Unit has formed.
>  
>      The Allied player converts Yugoslav Partisan Cadres into Partisan Units
> the same as with Allied Partisans, except there is a limit on the number of
> conversion attempts allowed a turn:
>      1939-1940  0 attempts/turn
>      1941       1 attempt/turn
>      1942       2 attempts/turn
>      1943-1945  3 attempt/turn
> Each attempt has a 1/6 chance of success.
>  
>      Beginning in 1943 the Allied player may attempt once per turn to
> convert a Yugoslav Partisan Unit into a 2-5 Yugoslav Partisan Division.
> This is done during Reinforcement Phase by clicking on the hex with the
> Partisan Unit in it, and selecting the appropriate option.  The chance of
> success is 1/6.
>  
>  
> So according to the rules, the regular units should be eliminated at a
> partisan cadre put in place (wherever that may be). No exemptions for
> overrun. I checked the overrun rules and it says the unit doesn't form a
> battle group, but nothing about forming a partisan cadre. I suspect that
> that is the source of the bug/feature.
>  
> Yugoslavia has always tended to be a pretty minor front. A few
> Italians/Hungarians keep the rail lines open and don't care about the rest.
> If a partisan division shows up (that could do some real harm), deal with it
> then. 
>  
> I would tend to say keep the rules as is and just implement them correctly
> (as opposed to the CWIE I total elimination on an overrun). It makes the '41
> set up of 38 partisans make sense. As to where the units are, yes you will
> get a lot on the plains. But as the Yugoslavian mover, there comes a point
> (relatively quickly in the game) that you leave 3 combat points in Belgrade
> for one last turn, and every other surviving unit force marches for the
> mountains. This gives me plenty of partisan cadre conversion bait up in the
> mountains. 
>  
> With attrition, I suspect that the strategies around "mopping" up the random
> partisan cadre will change.
>  
> If I was going to make any change in the rules, I would let the Yugoslavian
> player have the choice between returning any eliminated Yugoslavian partisan
> cadre to the board (normal partisan placement rules in effect) or turning a
> partisan cadre into a partisan unit as per the rules above. 
>  
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