[WarInEur] Artillery

Ian Raine iwraine at bigpond.net.au
Wed Aug 15 15:42:58 EDT 2007 

ArtilleryI don't think the artillery usage is meant to represent some sort of psuedo-tactical model. Its just a way of showing how the Soviets massed their artillery instead of parcelling it out to the divisions, ie the other counters. The support of an attacking unit in an adjacent hex is just a DFE mechanism. 

Years ago on this list we had a discussion about calculation of unit strengths. both building block raw numbers and whether there was a proficiency rating imposed on the Italians, French and Soviets, particularly. 

Q. Why are US and CW infantry divisions "8" and German "6" when they represent 9 btn divisions with three or four artillery battalions, and supporting arms? (noting the crt slide deals with the Heer reduction to 6 btn divisions)

A. Because the CW and US divisions each get "assigned" two of the many non divisional artillery btns not depicted directly in the counters, worth a point each. Or in the US case one of those and a tank or TD btn assigned by army or corps HQ.

The Red Army 1-4 represents the chronically understrength and not much trained infantry unit with maybe 4000 men and some 120 mm mortars and 45mm AT guns pulled along by horses or even the men. The 4-4 and 5-5 represent groups of thoses divisions with some more heavy weapons and MGs etc, maybe some 76mm guns or even 122mm ones. The non divisional artillery however is kept seperate in the 10-1-10s so the Soviet player can use it to beef up whichever bit of the front is the current target. Which has an historical basis.

The fact of the matter is the CW and US armies in 44/5 - and in particular the US army - had masses of artillery collected at corps and army level, not to mention masses of independant btns which in the end were often semi permanently attached to divisions. Maybe they had more weight of shell per rifleman than the Red Army, I'm not sure. All that combat power was divided up and spread around the divisions  in the game and increments their combat strength.

Here as an extreme example is the OOB of 1st US ID on 1 March 1945

It had the usual:

- 'cavalry' company

- 3 regiments x 3 infantry btns

- artillery brigade of 4 btns

- engineer btn

but it also had attached:

- AAA btn

- tank btn

- "SP A/T" btn - ie TDs

- arm'd cav btn

- btn plus more engineers

- 2 more artillery btns and a 155 mm gun battery.

In WIE terms this division rates a combat strength of about 13.

The US 4th armored division by the end of the war had enough extra stuff attached to it that it could just about form another full set of combat command TFs out of the extras  (see S&T 30, The Organization of the US Army - Europe 1944-45,  by Guy Ferraiolo)
   
Ian
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dan Holte 
  To: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Artillery



  At a scale of 33km per hex, does anyone really think that artillery should be firing at a range of two hexes away?


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Buckley, John D (Dr) 
    To: Don Lazov 
    Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net 
    Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:19 AM
    Subject: RE: [WarInEur] Artillery


    I get the point, but just because 'it has always been...'  doesn't mean that it is clearly stated in the rules. I tend to to agree with your interpretation but mainly because the Decision Games version clearly prints the factors as 0-1-10 or 0-5-1 etc. The SPI versions I have seen do not categorically state what you say they do, but I have only seen the War in the East second edition.
    As for the range, 'titally ncorrect' rather overplays you point -  all other combat factors can only be applied to an adjacent hex, the range could easily equate to firing over a hex. I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse here; I  wasn't the only one to see it as I have stated. However, I have raised the issue as I found it odd that the rules don't actually state the case either way. If anyone has access to the first rules maybe it states it clearly there?
    John

    Dr John Buckley 
    Reader in Military History 
    University of Wolverhampton 
    Tel: 0044 (0)1902 323388 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Don Lazov [mailto:dlazov at comcast.net]
      Sent: 15 August 2007 12:52
      To: Buckley, John D (Dr)
      Cc: warineur at mailman.halisp.net
      Subject: Re: [WarInEur] Artillery


      Since 1974 (WitE 1st) and 1976 (WIE) it has always been understood as:

      Attack, Defense, Movement

      10-1-10 ART
      (1)10 (or with DG 0-1-10) AT
      2(5)1 (or with DG 2-5-1) TU
      (5)1 (or with DG 0-5-1) GE 

      And so on.

      The Soviet Artillery has always been 10 Attack factors, 1 defense factor and 10 movement points.

      Besides your idea of a range of 1 is totally incorrect. The correct range is 2 hexes.

      Also, in order to use the 10 Attack points, other units must be attacking because Artillery have always been support units. In other words Artillery can never attack alone.




      Buckley, John D (Dr) wrote: 
        A quick query here, which will probably seem odd to most of the experts but I played a four day BWinE using the living rules over the weekend and hit a difference of opinion over artillery. We'd always played that 10-1-10s meant 10 combat strength, 1 range and 10 movement. Our opponents played 10 attack, 1 defence and 10 movement. Other players shared both of interpretations. None of the old and new rules we had with us stated the case either way. I'm happy to go with either interp but does anyone have the definitive answer?

        John 

        Dr John Buckley 
        Reader in Military History 
        University of Wolverhampton 
        Tel: 0044 (0)1902 323388 



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