[Consim-l] Damage models

[Markus Stumptner]

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007, Mircea Pauca wrote:
>   VG _Gulf Strike_ has similar Loss markers but with gradual effect.
> A division has 10 Hits: 0-7 Full factors, 8-9 Reduced side, 10 eliminated. 
> Recovery is also possible slowly in a special, vulnerable mode behind the 
> front.
>   _Across the Piave_ has a separate roster sheet, hard to think together 
> with the map but may keep some secrecy.
>   Even the Disruption 1-4 (days until Fresh) in AH Turning Point: Stalingrad 
> actually represents unit reorganization to integrate a scarce
> replacement flow.
>
>   I wonder what _better_ systems there are. Especially for persons
> and ships.

At this point of the discussion I think there are none.  You either have 
very abstract handling of damage, or damage markers, or roster sheets. 
There is no such thing as a free lunch.  I've played games that use any of 
these and which works depends on the scale *and size* of the game.  I have 
seen WWII operational games that brilliantly and elegantly use roster 
sheets for fog of war (Command's Budapest '45 and Rommel at Gazala fit 
into this mold), and others where tracking lots of one-box units is a 
mortal pain (Clash of Arms' Borodino 1941 fits into this category).

> Annoyed by RPG mega-characters and "life potions"...

I think before we can talk "better", you have to specify what you expect 
the simulated real-life effects to be. Depending on the map and unit scale 
you can have units that take damage until they suddenly go poof, or those 
that degrade slowly.

A distinction that is often made in naval games is between those that 
concentrate on slowly accumulating damage and those that concentrate on 
"critical hits" that take out particular systems.  Most games out there 
have a combination of the two.  Bruce described these fairly well in his 
first response.

I have made the experience that SF games tend to go a bit overboard on 
detailed damage schemes, apparently having lots of hit boxes takes the 
place of historical accuracy which is of course unverifiable for such 
games.

> Are there statistics on how incapacitated wounded men can be ?
> I remember seeing a sort of "hit" and "severity" "map" in Trevor Dupuy's 
> Encyclopedia of Warfare.

I think at pretty much any level but RPGs, none of this matters.  In many 
cases it may be more useful to take the reverse view: if you lose a man in 
a game where you, he has taken an incapacitating hit, period.  What 
matters are not the details of his wounding or killing, but that he is out 
of the fight.  The only exception would be a skirmish level game where you 
are worrying about which individual the medics are taking care of....

>   There was a quite complicated system for ships in SSI's Great
> Naval Battles III on PC, with penetrations leading to turret (firepower)
> damage, engines damage, fires, flooding, some critical damages etc. and 
> scarce Damage Control crews being sent around in real time.
>   Good imagery, but sends the burden of 'calibrating' one level down...
> with even more less-provable detail for the designer to invent/tweak.

Actually, in theory we have very good data at that level from historical 
engagements.  The main problem is whether you trust a computer game to get 
it right, in particular since there is no way for the players to verify 
this.  This, in my opinion, is the main drawback of historical computer 
wargames over boardgames, and SSI has a bad record in that regard.  (They 
had a WWII Pacific game that would resolve combat between surface ships in 
individual "salvoes" or at least groups of salvoes, but the hit allocation 
algorithm was screwed and as a result you would get completely ahistorical 
damage patterns.

>   I wonder how quick a hit man or ship collapses/sinks.
> Or he/she will certainly, and fast, if left in 1:1 close fight, and only
> comrades stepping in closely to cover its retreat will prevent that ?

I think you have a chance of getting decent models at the ship level, but 
I think for humans the mental processes playing into this are complex 
enough that you're not going to get a model that is generally applicable.

Markus

Last 3 games played: Ogre, Frederick the Great, The Fast Carriers
--------------- http://www.dbai.tuwien.ac.at/user/mst/games/ ---------------
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